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My Thoughts on Aryan Migration to Indus Civilization – II


Let’s make one thing clear. My doubts are about the timing Sanskrit (or seeds of Sanskrit) coming into India. I am pretty sure at some point the “seeds” of Sanskrit came to India from Central Asia. But I think the 1500 BC timeline raises more questions than it answers.

My doubts about 1500 BC timeline primarily come from my study of comparative religions and evolution of philosophy. If you see the Vedas and Puranas and Upnishads and Buddhist texts like Mahayana canon, they follow a certain curve. They move from a rituals to social ethics to metaphysics to nihilism and then to negativist philosophy of Zen. Upnishads clearly talk about this negativist philosophy of emptying your mind. Most of the Upnishads, including Isha-vasya Upnishad were already present at the time of Buddha (approx 600 BC). The number of texts is so big and the discussions so thourough, that this represents more the state of maturity of society than intellect of an individual.

If Rig-veda was compiled at 1500 BC, then all this transition was done in less than thousand years. Which I find IMPOSSIBLE. To achieve this state of philosophical development, a society must go through several golden periods and dark periods. Also the society must be very well established to share and pass down the knowledge. A nomadic tribe cannot offer such environment.

If you have read the book “Geography of Thoughts”, you will know what I mean. The Western culture still believes in two things. One is “linear trend”, where things just keep getting better and in long term things always improve, may it be Stock Market Index or average life expectancy. Second is “individual choice”. This is why Western philosophy always revolves around utilitarian aspect of ethics, the way of making the best choices and getting gratification to all your desires. Whereas Eastern world talks about endless cycles and transcendence beyond identity. This has come from a long history crossing several millennia that has witnessed several ups and downs of entire civilization.

Most of the Western scholars (and their European influenced Indian counterparts) look at the cyclical paradigm as a primitive form of linear western paradigm. Thus they interpret the texts as more primitive works. Whereas Eastern philosophers (and their Western advocates like Alan Watts), view the linear paradigm as a primitive version of cyclical Eastern paradigm, and place the Eastern works philosophy at higher in evolution chain then their European Utilitarian equivalents.

I, for my part, am reasonably sure that line is the circle you haven’t seen enough. I think even the Western civilization will eventually starve itself of strategic resources, will undergo decay, destruction and will reach the phase of cyclic thinking paradigm. I think the all-encompassing humanity of Vedic civilization represents a more advanced stage than the individual based humanity of Western world. They achieved higher level of humanitarian development with lesser level of scientific or technological development.

The room must be made for Vedic civilization to evolve to this stage, in proper contexts of geography and time. If that’s the case, then the Indus civilization, with a vast geographical footprint of more than 2.5 million sq km with well planned towns and long timeline spanning several millennia is better candidate to be the ancestor of vedic civilization than the Kurgan or any other culture with a tiny presence in time and place.

If you choose to deny that the cyclic paradigm is not advanced stage of linear paradigm, you have one less reason to doubt 1500 BC Aryan Migration. But still that is not the end of story. If Aryan Migration at 1500 BC has to be accepted 100%, then it must explain everything, not only linguistics and some archeological findings.

The points about horse and spoke wheels of chariots are old and lot of explanations have been provided by either sides. Aryan migration is perhaps one way of explaining those archeological findings, rather than the only way.

What is not yet explained by Aryan Migration is the interesting finding of genetics that today’s Southeast Asians do not differ significantly from their ancestors 6000 years ago. Please take a look at this Wikipedia articles about Aryan Migration.
and follow description to “Genetics and Archaeogenetics of South Asia” for further explanation. As I understand it, so far archeogenetics has raised very serious doubts about Aryan Migration @1500, but probably not enough to oust it out. Study is ongoing.

Also the points related to astronomical obeservations in Konrad Elst’s book are not well explained by Aryan Migration theory. I am not astronomy expert but the discussion presented by Konrad Elst in his book is indeed fact based.

Till a new theory is found, Aryan Migratio theory stays because this should get benefit of doubt. But at the same time, as an established theory, it has more burden of answering doubts that it’s not-proven-yet counterparts.

Yes, the Aryan Migration @1500 BC theory is accepted by several Foreign and Indian experts. But that does not mean the theory should not be doubted and overturned if some new evidence found against it tomorrow. No theory in science is blessed with immunity from doubt and further enquiry.


https://kedarsoman.wordpress.com

31 Responses

  1. Nice posts. There was book on Aryan Invasion Theory. I have written a review on it. Read through it and comments on it , if you are interested :
    http://bachodi.wordpress.com/2006/08/11/book-bible-of-aryan-invasion/

  2. Just found one more resource.
    For anyone interested in further detail discussion, following link is very useful,

    http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0010&L=indology

    Bachodi, thanks for your comment.

    Kedar

  3. what is happening here ? hello ? spams ?

  4. Aryan Invasion theory is a nonsense based only on the dating of some artifacts found in Indus valley. There is no scientific basis for the dating of 1500 BC. Vedas talk about the mighty Saraswati river that flowed during the vedic period, but this river never existed during 1500 BC!! It existed at around 4000 BC !!!
    We are missing about 10000 15000 years of history before Christ!! The powerful church of the medieval ages has twisted and rewritten a lot of history…
    Max Muller himself apologized later on his Aryan Invasion Theory! Aryans always existed in India and Dravidians are not a separate race!! Infact Aryans itself is not a race.. The vedic books never call their RACE as Aryan.. Aryan means Gentleman, like how we say Mr in Sanskrit…
    Max Muller didnt even know proper sanskrit!! Many sanskrit experts have criticized Max Muller for his wrong interpretations of the vedas!
    All the Dravidian languages have their roots in Sanskrit, so how can there be an aryan invasion which pushed Dravidians down to South India. The Myth of the Aryan and Dravidian as separate races of North and South India was created by the British to divide the Indian people and create hatred, the same way they divided Hindus and Muslims.. to rule India..

    The ancient Indians can be traced back to one single Vedic Race, thats it

    Anyways check this out http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/22/saraswati-darshan-the-revelation-of-sarasvati-river/
    and

    • Dear Gurudev.
      Even respecting your point of view, I believe that had a very developed society about 5000 years ago which flourished on the Hindu Valley. As you probably know about harappa and mohenjo-daro, societies that were more developed than many still today.
      The European try to say that didn’t have the Aryan invasion. And they arrive there passively. But do you know any passive invasion? On the south of India you can find descendants of those people, the dravidas. People with dark skin and some still live in a matriarchal society (tantric), as were the dravidas, opposite to Aryans patriarchal and warrios (bramacharya).

      • Dear Paulo,

        I just saw your site and you are sort Yoga master. But, do you know that Yoga system derives the knowledge from Vedas and you must be aware ( being Yoga master yourself ) that Yoga system is development & one of greatest achievement of human mind’s ability. But, you must not be aware that these Yoga is found in Indus Valley civilization area’s excavations in many places by way of small terracota statues of different Yoga positions. So, it implies that IVC Indians who were highly advanced among others in the world ( at that time ) were themselves Yoga practicing in day to day life. So, that means that Yoga tradition which culminated from Vedas was also known to IVC Indians. And, it means that Veda is not some central asian nomadic people’s ( so called Aryans ) creation , but ancient Indians ( as traditionally known to Indians ).

        This Yoga statues find from IVC is deliberately being hide , otherwise you are Yoga master and still don’t know this fact !!! ( like majority in India & outside ). It’s available in Mr.B.B.Lal’s papers who was President of Archelogical Survey of India.

  5. Cool.

  6. Sorry 😦

  7. Hi,

    I am currently doing research on this topic and have several doubts. I agree with you that 1500-2000 B.C.E. is to early to comprehend the advancements; however, Greek philosophy did not take much time. I believe 500 or more years and they were on a great peak. Also, if that was to hold true then why haven’t archaeologists found artifacts from earlier periods. Additionally, that would indicate that Indus valley was Aryan, but several people believe Indus valley has dravidian roots. That would mean dravidians had an advanced aboriginal civilastion which was traded with Aryans who came.

    Some others find that even dravidians to be Aryans, and that would either mean India is the birthplace of europeans (impractical), or all this started several millieniums ago.

    What is your take on this, I have not been able to find a concrete theory that has more proofs than faults yet.

  8. Yes. Aryan Migration Theory has much more flaws than Invasion theory. In historical periods , there were many people of central asia migrated to India , but they mixed with indians & adopted indian culture & language and forget about changing language & culture of whole indian subcontinent by some aryan tribes of central asia.

    Tish, india may not be birthplace of europeans , but indo-eupean language is certainly. Today’s south east asian languages like thai, malay, indonesian , javanese etc. is full of Sanskrit words. Sanskrit or it’s derived words in these languages are upto 40%. So, do you find any indian genes predominently in those SE asian countries. NO. But, due to highly developed culture of india , those SE asian countires adopted indian culture. Can you imagine how would have been people of SE asia before currently predominant indian based culture ( except Islam ).

    Same is the story of Europe. Europeans may not have been indians in past, but we all were from Africa ( & it’s genetically proven ). Skin, hair etc. colour changed afterwards. Even as per this `out of africa’ findings, one group of europeans indeed came from NW India. So, your assumption can be wrong indeed. Those europeans had stayed in NW India for many centuries before ice retreaded in southern & central Europe. So, this holds the key for relation between languages of Indian to Europe.

    If there were some aryans then why currently caucasian mountain area is Non-IE language speaking area ? i.e. the core area is non-IE.

    • Dear Win, I appreciated your comments. I see easily that who reply my message is someone that knows what is speaking.
      If you see what I was commenting you will see that I was question Mr Gurudev about his point of view. : “Max Muller himself apologized later on his Aryan Invasion Theory! Aryans always existed in India and Dravidians are not a separate race!! Infact Aryans itself is not a race.. The vedic books never call their RACE as Aryan.. Aryan means Gentleman, like how we say Mr in Sanskrit…”
      I completely agree with the theory that the Aryans were Barbarians, warriors and arrived in Indus Valley through the war and killing that society, the Dravidas, that you mentioned, as we can read on the Maha-bharata, many myth about war!
      Shiva the creator of the Yoga is almost always draw with dark skin, so, it means for me that they tried to show that he was a dravida, consequently the Yoga emerged from the Dravidian civilization.
      I teach the Ancient Yoga, it means the pre-classic Yoga, pre-vedic, proto-historic, roots Samkhya and Tantra, called today Swasthya Yoga.
      I agree, it’s the same Yoga practised in that time. But I don’t agree that the Yoga came from the Vêdas, even knowing that the Vêdas is/came from Shruti (what is heard, so parampara).
      Thank you for showing your opinion, and I mostly agree with everything that you said.
      Paulo

      • Dear Paulo,

        Read B.B.Lal’s below papers.

        1. http://www.hvk.org/articles/0302/200.html
        2. http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/19th-century-paradigms.html

        I think it will clear your misconceptions about Aryans.

        And, by the way even post vedic ( & so called Aryan ) gods like Vishnu, Ram & Krishna – have same skin colour as Shiva i.e. dark ink blue. Actually, it has some different symbolism as we don’t find any race or person with dark ink blue colour.

        You need to understand that there is nothing as pre-vedic Yoga in any of the ancient Sanskrit books. After reading , B.B.Lal and Nicholas Kazanas articles from http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/default_en.asp your understanding will be broaden.

  9. Very interesting discussions on the AMT and its ramifications comparing it with the IVC. I will make one brief point. If we take a closer look at the IVC, whatever language they wrote or spoke, not only came to a dead end but its serious limitations is monumental in comparing it with the refined Sanskrit with its complete grammar, and linguistic achievement. As far as the evidence stands now, the language of the IVC is mystifying, enigmatic and some suggest it is not a spoken language. Whether this is true time will tell. But so far the language of the Indus civilization cannot be compared to Sanskrit because of the purpose it supposedly served and that mostly in identifying trade and destination. I haven’t seen a single sentence of subject and predicate, verbs and pronouns that would identify it with proper grammar. The skills of the Indus people seemed to be centered on the building of cities and commerce and not on the arts even though their writing was accomplished very , very early in man’s history. On the other hand, the Aryans were intelligent and innovative intruders and their stamp of authority is in their language , religion and writing a great achievement for a nomadic people and the same goes for the Indus people, don’t get me wrong. If the Indus people can build such a civilization of grandeur in what we call the Neolithic Age, why not the Aryans also achieving such literary greatness? As for the time scale for composing the Vedas, it seems to suggest that the Aryans were chanting and memorizing the Vedas on their journeys to India in various migratory waves. This was the job of the seers, priests and bards to compose hymns and verses. We must remember the Aryans were divided into three groups, the priests, the warriors and the general population and the priestly class was the sole keepers of the compositions of religious faith. They were not allowed to do the fighting or any other chores but to compose the holy books. The Indus is not Aryan despite the frustrations of some readers. I ask myself after reading the opinions of others, why is it that every group invaded India, the Greeks, the Huns and the Sakas but only the Aryans migrated there? The Indus will always remain as an aborginal civilization because of its burial rites and customs as is being discovered there in its various cemeteries. There are no cremation sites until the Aryans came with the horse and chariot. The climatic and geographical disaster that overtook the Indus people prevented such innovations in its cities, because they were all gone, scattered into various parts of India when the Aryans arrived. That is why there is no depiction of the horse and chariot in its art, no cremation sites and no evidence of Aryan mythology and religion in its archaeological excavations. Another vestige of European ancestry is the findings of geneticist and anthropologist Spencer Wells and Bamshad who have shown that genes from the southern steppes of Russia are found in the upper class Indians. Now, Spencer Wells is a distinguished geneticist and his findings is accepted worldwide and in India. He has also found that the original aboriginal people of India came from Africa and it is their descendants that built the Indus cities. Thanks for taking the time to read my bit. Awaiting responses.

  10. Hello Juven,

    Thanks for the very well written comment. I appreciate your visit to my blog and you taking time to write this.

    Also I am not professional researcher, so my comments need to be taken with a grain of salt. However being native of the culture gives me a unique perspective that I wish to share.

    Statements regarding Indus people knew or did not know something must be made very carefully as we are talking about a civilization that spanned 2.5 million square kilometers in geography and several millenniums in time. Many many of these hypotheses were made 80 years back when only a handful Indus sites were uncovered. They do not fit the current scale of IVC.

    There is a undeniably strong connection between Sanskrit and European languages. However there is pretty much no connection between any of the existing Sanskrit texts and any tribes/empires/civilizations outside India. The only connection invoked again and again in this context is the Mittani records mentioning Indra, Mitra and Varuna. This could very well have been due to a king who had connection to India rather than a due to an aboriginal tribe who migrated to India later.

    About horses and chariot, the Himalayan ranges are the most ill suited ranges to travel on chariots. Indus has well documented records of asses. So when Rigveda mentions Ashwa, how do we know they mean horse and not ass. In fact linguistically the word ass and ashwa are closer.

    About genetic proof, there is even more confusion. Certainly a big chunk of Indians are from the same genetic stock as Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans. But the infusion of this DNA does not fit the timeline of current AIT. Human beings originated in Africa and spread worldwide. So certainly somebody came to India from outside. The real question is who came when?

    The invasion part of the theory is pretty much dead because it would be impossible for a nomadic tribe to invade (and linguistically replace) a several thousand years old culture spread across an entire subcontinent. Even the strongest proponents of Aryan Theory now use the word migration instead of invasion.

    Yes, Greeks, Shakas, Kushans , Mughals and even British invaded in India. Almost all of these had a lot stronger military and cultural might behind them, yet they failed to replace Indian languages by their own. So how could a nomadic tribe have done it?

    I have learned Sanskrit in school from a teacher who was educated in Sanskrit from a traditional school of Sanskrit and had medium of instruction as Sanskrit. And several times my understanding of Sanskrit differs from Western scholars. I have written to some such scholars about my doubts, but more often than not, I have been dismissed as a nationalist trying to override professional scholars. I really wonder what would happen if an Indian scholar of Latin said the same thing to a native Latin speaker?

    Given the vastly diversified geography of Indian subcontinent, it is possible that two cultures evolved simultaneously. The text Mahabharata mentions the empire of Yadus which was mostly engaged in cattle trade etc. and empire of Kurus did not deal with cattle at all.

    Yes, it is true that many Indians tend to get carried away on this subject and let their cultural pride take over than scientific inquiry. That is not right and need to be changed. However I think current theory is debatable and truth is yet to be established.

  11. Bachan, IVC people were not good in Arts ? Are you gone made or want to hide deliberately the fact about excavation of bronze statue of dancing girl. Even Indian music is scientific in nature. If today’s people can not decipher IVC seals then you can not say that IVC was dravidian. Without understanding Indian scriptures & culture you are propogating lies like AIT was propogated without any proof and Max Muller’s childish understanding of Rig-Veda.

    IVC excavations have found small terracota statues of men in different well known Yoga postures. So, it means that IVC indians were knowing Yoga in depth. Now, Yoga tradition is derived from Veda. Indian scriptures & traditions say that Veda is seed form of all knowledge. Veda word itself means knowledge in Sanskrit. So, as per you we assume that Aryan tribal people came to India chanting Veda , but forgot to mention the main knowledge that they came from some outside central asian land ! Great Joke !!!

    And such joking arguments with hiding of facts & lack of understanding about Indian culture’s depth is main reason for such arguments. You are still comparing IVC indians with Australian aboriginals shows height of your pretendance.

  12. Juven Bachan said:

    “”””””””””‘
    On the other hand, the Aryans were intelligent and innovative intruders and their stamp of authority is in their language , religion and writing a great achievement for a nomadic people
    “””””””””

    their language and religion and writing are great not because they were nomadic, because they werent, they were expanding, they were an agrarian people who grew to much on their native territory and started colonising new teritories

    note the difference between expansion and nomadism

    ALL nomadic people have a VERY limited vocabulary, limited spiritual life, and as for writing is mostly inexistant

    nomads: huns, mongols, red skin tribes from america, turk tribes, arab tribes etc

    the nomads dont do agriculture, they just go from place to place , and they stay on each place just as long as the resources of the terrain can sustain them and their horses

    Indo-europeans were an agrarian society, that was their main caracteristic, agrarians once they settle a new teritory dont leave their teritory because they invested too much in it and they wait to collect the rewards of their hard work

  13. this blog starts with the authors thoughts regarding Sanskrit…

    ‘I am pretty sure at some point the “seeds” of Sanskrit came to India from Central Asia….’

    my dear squire i have no reason to shove anything down your throat, but do you have any clue as to what you are saying?

    have you seen the quark sized beam of light that blinds all these theories with the limited amount of understanding Sanskrit has unveiled to us so far?

    at takshila – which is meant to be the oldest university so far where they studied such things as aeronautics, where babylonians, greeks, the chinese and people from all over came to study….

    this is barely scratching the surface – find a culture that has evidence of anything that can compare itself to the Sanskrit realm and you will find it hard –

    which is why they are creating the non-existent language they call PIE to delude us indians into believing another version / or proof that the AIT happened….

    if anything the creation of the PIE lie should make us indians even more proud –

    because even though the Egyptians are going through a similar situation with their culture –

    and white racist losers claiming to be the architects behind it – no culture on this planet is having an artificial language being created to change their history….

    when a criminal or murderer, goes through so much trouble to create artificial evidence, then i think that in itself tells the story to anyone who has a braincell and some form of intelligent neural activity to go with it…..

    bowled & caught…

    think about it Aryavarthans – if we do NOT know who we are then we are INVITING people to TELL us who they want us to be…

    and if you guys haven’t figured out that we are nothing more than stewards, shoes cleaners, financial slaves and mere cogs in their equation then i ask you to slap yourself around the face to wake you up…

    when bombs drop on india will the south indians have time to differentiate between themselves and north indians?

    will the bullets differentiate?

    teachers here in the UK are already telling their students that in the future the wars will be for water – and guess who has a nice reserve of ice cold, melting water?

    i’ll leave it as that…..

  14. TYPHON how dare you go against the academic & scholarly thoughts of JUVEN BUCHAN? Did you not know that he is German and thus part of the PURE race?

    ha ha – ok well read the following and imagine the look on Juvens face when he gets round to reading it….
    ——————————————————————————–
    for every psychological term there is in English, there are 4 in Greek, and forty in Sanskrit.

    quote by A.K Coomaraswamy from ‘You Are Being Lied Too’ – Disinformation group

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KALsz08ijnkC&pg=PT357&lpg=PT357&dq=for+every+psychological+term+in+english,+there+are+4+in+greek,&source=web&ots=p16z7saVau&sig=uyEu6Tdq5TIJQGm9uoh_Ol3Z_vg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
    ———————————————————————————————
    The Vedas contain the knowledge of the following ;

    Art, Linguistics, Music, Literature, Economics, Religion, Weaponry, Space Science, Geometry, Logic, Technology, Hpnotism, Mathematics, Philosophy, Rituals, Health & Long life, Magic, Medicine, Architecture, Aeronautics, Spiritual Wisdom….

    65 words for Earth, 70 for water – (each being originally Sanskrit, not being derived from any other language) – the 70 synonyms for water then multiplies into 280 words words with prefixes for specific descriptions of rainfall…

    Takshila – 2700 years ago had students from Babylonia, Greece, Syria, Arabia & China…68 different streams of knowledge were available on the syllabus including the following;

    Vedas (thus all the above topics), Language, Grammar, Philosophy, Medicine, Surgery, Archery, Politics, Warfare, Astronomy, Astrology, Accounts, Commerce, Futurology, Documentation, Occult, Music, Dance..

    Gyaamiti – (geometry)
    Trikonamiti – (trigonometry)
    emerged in india 1000 BCE (if not earlier)

    tallakshanam = 10×53 being used as early 100BCE
    Krati = 34000th of a second

    ( why would we be using such intricate numbers? Both big & small? ‘YANTRA SARVASVA – The Encyclopedia of Machines, which includes the famous VYMANIKA SHASTRA which is only one volume or chapter in the works,that contains refined details of things like ’spectrometers’ & alot more )

    Shushruta the father of surgery describes the details of more than 300 operations and 42 surgical processes in his compendium Shushruta Samhita classifying surgery into 8 types.

    plastic surgery in india 2600 years ago with 125 types of surgical instruments –

    ‘The Hindus were so advanced in surgery that their instruments could cut a hair longitudinally’ Mrs Plunkett…

    the above information is part of a permanent exhibition at
    BAPS SHRI SWAMINARAYAN MANDIR,
    105-119 Brentfield Road,
    Neasden
    LONDON
    NW10 8LD

    school children of all religions & cultures come visit this temple everyday via arranged tours with their institute….
    ———————————————————————————
    The VEDIC realm has 330 million deities just for this material realm, with another 330 billion deities for the realm external to this one, with each one having their own unique thread of metaphorical encrypted data opening a gate to their own kingdom of wisdom.

    Mmmmmmm…. I wander what they could be compared to? I suggest looking up at the sky at night….

    Which culture or nomadic group wants to claim they are the creators or the owners of this knowledge? With the their vast amounts of scholarly & academic evidence displaying the ANFRACTUOSITY required to back their claims?

    I will leave it as that, make your own minds up Aryvarthans..
    Please understand the only people who have a lucrative interest in promoting the AIT, AMT or the PIE lie are deluded people who have roots in NAZI ideology, just like Max Mueller who created the AIT to neuro liguistically programme Indians into believing they are INFERIOR….

    The only people who have to go through all that kind of trouble to do that to a race, are the ones displaying negativity due to a inner insecurity….thus making them inferior by their OWN actions, and this is what they have gone down in history for, and in some cases proud of. Are these the people whose minds & egos you Indian AIT promoters want to inflate?

    Interesting….

    Just with the above information one can see why they continually have to alter, or in some cases create new ‘conspiracy theories’ or constructs, always moving the goal posts, or creating new PIE models etc….

    What a joke – which court or judge would even consider the so-called laughable proof or evidence, the NAZI lovers desperately try to promote as worthy?

    Game, set & match….

    Love,peace & TRUTH

    Jai Hind

    Indian Born In Britain…

  15. Apologies for my tone of sarcasm Juven, I am well aware the Buchan clan (allegedly) originate from Aberdeen, here in the UK.

    For the author of this blog I hope the above information allows you to see the quaquaversal qualities, of the quark sized beam of light, that Sanskrit has revealed to us so far, with quadrant sized chunks yet to be unveiled, with every twist & turn…

    There is only one word in the English language, that can even come close to justifying a description for the Sanskrit language which is – ANFRACTUOUS-ANFRACTOUSITY…..

    If people want a deeper poetic definition behind SANSKRIT then i suggest you view the poem named after the language on my website template….

    http://www.geocities.com/chrishna21/sanskrit.htm

    (ps – dear author of blog – i defended you against the childish attacks made by Marshall, yet you allow his posts to come through yet block mine, awaiting moderation, yet mine are non-offensive, thought provocative & informative?)

    Thus causing this anomaly of plenipotentiary, stuck in a world he describes as a metaphorical Apocryphal, to be rather confused….

  16. “The Indus will always remain as an aborginal civilization because of its burial rites and customs as is being discovered there in its various cemeteries” —- written by Juven Bachan at Comment No.9 . Even, Western World buries their dead, so even that should be called as aboriginal civilization.

    Sanskrit is highly developed & scientific language which can be only of highly developed & scientifically planned Indus Civilization ( and not of any nomadic wonderers ). Nomads of central asia can be compared with Aboriginal people of Australia. And, they changing language & culture of Ancient Indian Subcontinent is utter non-sense.

    Juven, all people of Indian Subcontinent shows gene similarity with Europeans, irrespective of being higher or lower class. So, your point is baseless & mis-guiding.

    Even in BMAC area of central asia which is tauted to be Aryan nomads base area, deads were not cremated but buried. So, even this fact is not well published or deliberately hide by you.

  17. Hello Mr.Soman, I read your comments on the AIT I and II, and the subesequent posts by the different people and it has been very enlightening. Particularly the back and forth arguments by Juven Buchan, Kal-K and Win. It actually provokes you to think, Iam myself obssesed with the ancient Indian history which I know has been manipulated to a large extent. I have a few questions which are bothering me. Like the time frame of the IVC and the the Vedic civilisation, which has not fully been resolved. The lack of archaelogical evidence in the case of the horse (as stated by Juven) in IVC strengthens the other theory ie: AMT, but the other arguments are just as strong- the genetic pool, sanskrit lang etc. Where does then the latest archaelogical discovery fit in- the finding of a civilisation in the gulf of cambay ( supposedely the Dwarka nagri), dated to about 7500 B.C according to the carbon dating done on the pottery, and the finding of a DAM in the same civilisation. A DAM in 7500 B.C? Could it be a contemporary of IVC or perhaps its predecessor? Also another archaeological finding a few months back, some kms away from Bhuvneshwar (Orissa). This site is being called the contemporary of classical Athens (5th B.C), but capable of housing five times the number of people in Athens, ie: about 25000 people. Certainly these discoveries would counter the claim of AIT or AMT. Because if the former discovery is indeed linked to Dwarka which according to the Mahabharata or later scriptures was submerged in water or met a watery grave, then how do the dates match? If Aryans came to India in 1500s and brought with them the vedas and the two great epics, then could it just be the passing down of stories as in the oral tradition, or an actual chronicle of events dating back to 7500 B.C? Another thing I can’t seem to fit in is a part of the Atharva Veda, written in sharda or brahmi script Iam not sure, preserved in Germany and dated 9000 B.C. A period in which even the Greeks had not evolved writing. And currently we rate Greek civilisation as the oldest, literary evidence- Homer and Sappho, 9000- 7000 B.C. Is it a product of the Indian subcontinent? Or does this also gets embroiled in the AIT/ AMT thesis? Is there any explanation for the above? Could I please have some answers…

  18. There are some really interesting & puzzling points which are deliberately overlooked by AIT/AMT supporters as they don’t have answers for that.

    1. Regarding horse findings, IVC is equally sparse in evidence of horse as BMAC which is tauted as Aryan base area in central asia ( though there are many findings & confirmation by one renowned European horse scholar who passed away few years back during this discussions , but he has confirmed that horse remains in IVC is of true horse. But, now AIT/AMT supporters are denying this finding of later scholar. I forgot his name rightnow )

    2. BMAC houses in in town like Arkim were burnt where as IVC towns were abandoned due to natural calamity & not burnt . BMAC ended during same period when peak IVC period ended during 1900 BC.
    Why the resemblance ? No answer given for this.
    This is the period when Saraswati river ceased flowing till sea due to natural calamity. So, Saraswati ended in a land instead of sea. Some section of Ancient IVC people when moved towards Afghanistan or ancient iranians, gave the name to Helmond ( Harahvaiti ) river in rememberance of once mighty & praised Saraswati river.

    3. In town of 50,000 people only 38 dead people’s remains were found in IVC Mohenjodaro. So, it also means that burial was not as wide spread as told to be.

    4. IVC people turn to cremation after collapse of IVC & subsequent abandon of IVC area around Saraswati river. But, supposedly parent Aryan BMAC area continued to be under Burial practice. So, Cremation is not something special trait of some Aryan people.

    5. After disintegration of IVC towns , some Kassaite warrior people appeared in ancient Iraq. Now, Sanskrit name of Tin metal is Kastîra. `Kas’ means `to shine’ in Sanskrit and Kaaseites were worshipping Indian Vedic gods like Indra, Varun & Nasatya. India was well known for her Tin metal during IVC and Tin used to be exported regularly to Middle East. Bronze used during IVC contains Tin as it makes the alloy harder.

  19. Very good discussion indeed!

    It is interesting to see that proponents of AIT/AMT continue to justify a theory, which is more or less baseless. I wonder what drives them to make this ‘logic circus’ in ongoing manner. A common Indian does not really think that he is an outsider.

    Secondly we should segregate the two topics, Aryans and IVC. Wheeler and Marshal tried to co-relate them to prove their point of AIT/AMT. It could be possible that 2 sets of people co-habited! Today several sets of people co-habit this land!

    The most unfortunate impact of these theories is that it has created an unnecessary divide between Indians. I hope we will overcome it some time in future. We already had so many divides bothering us and this is one more imposed by real ‘outsiders’ and we gladly accepted it!

  20. Hi Manisha,
    We are not trying to create a divide here, merely trying to re study and re construct our ancient Indian history. No Indian feels like an outsider today.
    Atleast I dont. My attempt is only to understand the history which we are studying today. Being a history student myself I know that it has been greatly manipulated, but to which extend is what I want to find out. Sadly, no researches are going on in India, and we are still studying the matter which was formulated for us, by the coloniser 200 yrs back. Sad case indeed.
    And i completely agree with you, that two civilisations could have existed at the same time, with the latest discoveries it is quite plausible. And iam still waiting for Mr. Soman’s comments. Thanks Win, I haven’t read much on BMAC, but will now give it a look.

  21. Manisha, if you think that `It could be possible that 2 sets of people co-habited!’ then you are wrong in the logic. IVC was having many planned towns and was most advanced in the world that time. But, that doesn’t mean that all IVC people were residing in planned towns only. There have be farmers in vast countryside villages who grew crops and supplied to those towns ( just like today ) or milk being supplied from outside cities.

    So, the condition was somewhat comparable with current situation where most indians are in rural areas and cities are having lesser %. Also, we have nomads in India ( you must have of rabaris of western india ). Is it possible that those nomad rabaris changing language , religious beliefs of advanced city dwellers ? The common sense will say NO and pseudoistic nature will say YES. Even, central asian nomads were assimiliated in India during historical period. But, this is happening in Aryan theory. First the same people were called advanced and ancient indians like australian aboriginals, but when IVC was found in 1920 the same people became nomads. So, it shows that this theory was imposed on the world history despite being totally on shaky grounds.

  22. Win, Co-habitation of 2 cultures is definitely possible. You may know that Megalithic and NBPW co-existed. The question here is whether people described in Vedas are same as those who lived in fortified cities of IVC. If none of them come from outside then they must have co-existed.

    Sahadi, I am accusing ‘proponents’ of AIT/AMT of creating a divide and definitely not you or anybody here. And I also feel that no one is India has remotest memory of their foreign origin. I guess, my comments were lost in interpretation.

    Very informative and nice discussion indeed !

  23. Megalithic culture is still prevalent in tribal areas of interior India. And, there also exits metro culture in India. Here tribal people have a lot to learn from urban culture & not vice versa. And, tribal people can be equated with supposedly migrating nomadic Aryan tribe or current Rabari nomadic tribes.

    And, question of 2 culture’s co-existent is not the case. The question is can nomadic tribal people change language & culture of entire Indian subcontinent. Even during IVC period , there were urban & rural people , just like we have now.

    And, before discussing all such things, was there any evidence for first Aryan Invasion Theory in which Aryans were portrayed Highly Civilized white skinned people and ancient indians as aboriginals ( just like Britishers found in Australia that time ) or after Harappa excavations , civilized aryans turning to nomads and invading much more advanced & cultured IVC people. THERE WERE NO PROOF FOR ANY OF THIS ILLOGICAL STORY. So, we should now question this. They have imposed this theory to rule their crown jewel and british/americans can lie to any extent if it suits them ( e.g. attack on Iraq on name of Biological weapons , but real motive was Petroleum )

  24. Also another important fact would be to note the Mitanni Empire. The Mitannis spoke an indo-aryan language and had a linguistic superstate. There was an indo-aryan superstate that extended over areas between asia minor and India. The Mitannis worshipped Vedic gods and there were even sanskrit writings found across the middle east and near east.

  25. hey youjust said ‘If Rig-veda was compiled at 1500 BC, then all this transition was done in less than thousand years. Which I find IMPOSSIBLE. To achieve this state of philosophical development, a society must go through several golden periods and dark periods. Also the society must be very well established to share and pass down the knowledge.’ but all this things are never proved unless you can give a 100 percent sure proof

  26. The fact of the matter is that the PIE aryan migration theory has no proof outside of the invented language.
    There main argument for the migration theory is due to the “linguistics”, even though evidence cannot be found at all for that theory. There is certainly no genetic evidence and there is a lack of evidence regarding the spread of the horse.

    Whereas what is definite is that there have been many mentioned Indian sites and geogrephical features present in the Vedas.

    The aryan “migrationists” base their argument
    on the language , which would imply that sanskrit is an offspring of proto-Indo-european, even though many sanskrit terms have been found in other indo-european languages. That is like saying that the offspring of a parent is the parent itself.So people had migrated to southern asia from central asia, and then left again to journey elsewhere. All of this large speculation without any evidence issued by the migrationists.

  27. I like this website very much so much superb info.

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