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My Thoughts on Aryan Migration to Indus Civilization


We all learned in history books that around the time 1800 BC to 1500 BC, the group of people called Aryans invaded India and defeated the aboriginal people. The invaders replaced the existing culture and language with their own. This is how the linguistic relation between European languages and Indian languages can be explained.

This theory left many many questions unanswered. This did not explain the creation of unparalleled volume of literature, philosophy and emergence of several spiritual traditions. But as all Indian young men, I left the history behind and began the quest of improving standard of my life. In this quest, the questions about my own origins had almost no room.

Now 20 years later, looking back at the same history I learned in books , I see that this theory of origin of Sanskrit and Indian culture gives rise to more questions than it answers.

If we accept the Arya Migration in India around 1500 BC, we have to cram the development of giant amount of Sanskrit literature in just a few centuries. Also the great epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata are reduced to fictions.

According to AIT, for this great literary development we end up giving credit to a group of people whose existence is not corroborated by anything other than linguistics. At the same time, we strip out the widely spread Harappan culture of any cultural and literary achievements .

In short, we end up with what we call as Fawley’s Paradox. We have a giant, well established civilisation with no literature, and we have giant literature with no trace of establishment or civilisation.

So wouldn’t it be rather easier to think that Harappan people were the ones who laid foundation of Sanskrit and Indian culture?

You can read my post on IIDB here. I have listed certain questions I can think of that are not answered by Aryan Invasion Theory.

According to Konrad Elst, the Vecid culture and Sanskrit language is indigenous to India and its beginning dates far back in history than the Western historians predicted. In his on-line book “Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate”, he makes some really good points. The entire on-line book by Konrad Elst on Aryan Migration theory is here.

ait.jpg

One of the most interesting points is astronomical evidence. It is indeed surprising to find that so far the astronomical observations in Rigveda and other texts have been outright ignored. If ignoring becomes impossible, then very unsatisfactory explanations are given to explain the consistency and accuracy of these astronomical observations.

An example from Konrad Elst’s book in his own words is
“Hindu tradition makes mention of the conjunction of the “seven planets” (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, sun and moon) and Ketu (southern lunar node, the northern node/ Rahu being by definition in the opposite location) near the fixed star Revati (Zeta Piscium) on 18 February 3102 BC. This date, at which Krishna is supposed to have breathed his last, is conventionally the start of the so-called Kali-Yuga, the “age of strife”, the low point in a declining sequence of four ages. However, modem scholars have claimed that the Kali-Yuga system of time-reckoning was a much younger invention, not attested before the 6th century AD.

Against this modernist opinion, French mathematicians Bailly and Playfair had already shown that the position of the moon (the fastest-moving “planet”, hence the hardest to back-calculate with precision) at the beginning of Kali-Yuga, 18 February 3102, as given by Hindu tradition, was accurate to 37’.9 Either the Brahmins had made an incredibly lucky guess, or they had recorded an actual observation on Kali Yuga day itself.”

At several places in ancient Sanskrit texts, we find very accurate astronomical observations and they are consistent with each other, meaning the sequence in which these observations are mentioned is indeed the sequence in which these astronomical events happened as confirmed by the modern science. So either we can say these are valid astronomical observations, or we can argue that they are back calculated. But the back calculation of positions of astronomical objects is one the most complex tasks requiring calculators with at-least four or five decimal point precision, the more likely scenario is that these obeservations were recorded by somebody who was present when those astronomical events happened.

Second important point is genetical evidence. Recently there have been some interesting attempts to map genes and use genetic data to trace human the history of human race. The genetic study of a subset of Indian population does not suggest any genetic mixing around 1800-1500 Bc. There is a change in genetic material of Indians around 6000 BC, and there is change around 300 BC, the later being more likely due to the invasion by Alexander. So if no marked difference exists in Indians in 2000 BC and Indians in 1000 BC, then probably nobody from outside India came and settled here.

If Aryan Migration Theory is proven false, then the repercussions are huge. That means Mahabharata and even likely Ramayana indeed happen. That means Vedic hymns once reverberated in the walls of Harappa. That means clearly by a big margin, India is the oldest civilisation on earth.

But that does not mean Indians had nuclear weapons back in 3000 BC. That does not mean we had airplanes and rockets. Can you find some hints and clues that suggest we might have had airplanes back then? Yes you can. But that is like trying to say US government organized destruction of world trade center. We must know that if some possibility cannot be ruled out, that that does not mean that possibility is validated. We can always build some conspiracy, but we must focus on building a foolproof cases. We must not let our pride and nationalism run ahead of scientific enquiry of facts.

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83 Responses

  1. Here is another interesting link

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-424MHP6-21&_coverDate=11%2F18%2F1999&_alid=512522197&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6243&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=335c22b2bd1b9c1ad3cd9d2dc0a0facf

    The abstract of the paper is as follows
    “Abstract

    About a fifth of the human gene pool belongs largely either to Indo-European or Dravidic speaking people inhabiting the Indian peninsula. The ‘Caucasoid share’ in their gene pool is thought to be related predominantly to the Indo-European speakers. A commonly held hypothesis, albeit not the only one, suggests a massive Indo-Aryan invasion to India some 4,000 years ago [1]. Recent limited analysis of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of Indian populations has been interpreted as supporting this concept [2 and 3]. Here, this interpretation is questioned. We found an extensive deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia [4, 5, 6, 7 and 8] and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe. Only a small fraction of the ‘Caucasoid-specific’ mtDNA lineages found in Indian populations can be ascribed to a relatively recent admixture.”

    • It is very amusing to see that Indians try to make sense of their past and their identity by trying to latch on to cultures and ethnic groups alien to it .
      So what it you dont share any traits with europeans .
      So what if the aryans didnt invade Harappan civilization.
      It doesnt help us by stating that ours is the most ancient of cultures. Mesopotamian and sumerians civilization which interestingly is linked to the prosperity of harappan civilization – predates the Harappan civilization by millenia.
      It is said that the cuneform script had even influenced the Chinese script which is older than sanskrit.
      The God EMKE of the sumerians has his analog in Vishnu in Hindu pantheon.(vide Kosambi) Myths and reality.
      Krishna will really give u an Idea as how a dark coloured cavalier got to rule most of the land we call now as India.
      In my state Kerala there are dark coloured brahmins who were ‘converted by the immigrant Brahmins from a cast called paanans – who were till then devotional singers of the Dravidian Mother goddesses
      You cannot try and fathom the geo ethno historical forces that shaped ur culture , mindset and our affinities.
      But one thing is sure All indians want to be regarded as someone more than what he/she is been taken granted for .
      Hence this wild goose chase trying to fix your geneology with that of Noble races and Heroic episodes.
      Indo eurpeans need not necessarily be of a particular ethnic stock .. Lingusitically you can share the roots withot miscegenation or having to believe in a common ancestor.- according to Romila thapar.
      Her book the revised edition of Early India is a remarkable read.
      We are not barking up the right tree . Like Joseph campbell says .. A new vision has to be born out of the old and without consigning one to a predetermined state,, reaching out to the past or trying to shape your way to a particuar point , where the future awaits you – Is the symptom of a dead or a diseased spirit.
      we are here now . be here fully with every fibre of your being .. and the new indian will be born

      • I want to tell you dude that the oldest Civilization is Saraswati Civilization. ( Now u will not find this information on the web because of max muller)

        #It was necessary to make all believe in ridiculous Christian Chronology – that the world was created at 9 AM on 23rd Oct 4004 BC and the great flood with Noah and ark party was in 2500 BC.

        #So the hoax of the great Aryan invasion into India sounded all right if it was dated to 1500 BC.

        #The fact remains that all ancient Indian civilisations ( rather even all world civilisations ) gave birth on river banks.

        # Vedic culture is NOT related to the Indus valley and Ganges.

        Saraswati , which was wider than Amazon started drying up in 4000 BC due to tectonic plate shifts which blocked the glacier source , and made this river dependant on rains , NOT melting ice.

        Now Come to point:-

        # It is NOT a mystical river as contended by Max Mueller. The Mahabharata clearly talks about the River Saraswati drying up. The mighty and perennial Saraswati river flowed from the Himalayan Glaciers to the Rann of Kutch where it emptied into the Arabian sea. Dwaraka of Lord Krishna was part of this civilization. Ganges was also flowing at that time into the Bay of Bengal.

        # Hinduism started in 9000 BC , outside the scale– and the benevolent Kingdom of Indian Aryan Emperor Vikramaditya who symbol was Swastika, extended till Jerusalem Longitude to the West , Urals Latitude to the North and Vietnam Longitude to the West. Krishna is the 8th avatar of Vishnu, born in 4100 BC.

  2. Sir/Madam, Your article is interesting in trying to find a scenario for the denying th Aryan migration to India. But they are there and you can’t deny that but Indian and foreign scholars alike confirm from the evidence on the ground is that they came in around 1500BC. As for Mr. Elst imaginative theory that Aryans are an indigenous lot is nothing but that, an active imagination. Mr. Elst like all the revisionists have written that the Indus is Aryan saying that from Ropar to Surkotada there are discoveries of horse remains and bones. This is false. If the Indus was teeming with horses , where is the evidence of horse trade between the Indus and the other civilizations. And we all know that the Indus traded every item that they made and imported every thing under the sun to their cities. But nowhere has the trade documents have any mention of horses. Unlike the Aryans who are a horse people and whose ulture was saturated with this animal. If you or your supporters including NRajaram et al and yes including Elst and his et al can provide attested documentation or other evidence that the Indus traded horses at a time (3500-2500 BC) which the revisionists say that horse remains are found, I will gladly accept their theories. The Indus and its neighbors lived in the Stone and early Bronze Age of which the leading technology was the ass and cart or the onagers and half asses. It is mind boggling that the Indus ALONE possessed horses and there is no evidence of horses in these other empires at this time and period. How can this be so? Mr G. L Possehl the Indian archaeologist is right in saying:

    As far as I can tell , there are lots of asses
    documented at the Indus settlement but
    not domestic horses.

    And he is right. The remains of the supposedly horses are nothing but asses and onagers from the Rann Of Kutch which is the breeding ground for such animals and the Indus people used them for transports and other purposes. It is here where the Indus got its supply of such animals known as “Khurs”

    • Arya is a sanskrit word for noble people and the ignobles are called mlechass. Now like how we see in recent times the english dictionary is inducting words from sanskrit literature. When the english came to india they interpreted the term arya in their own way. There is no decent evidence which supports the AIT. Besides both Mohenjodaro and Harappa are as radioactive or more than hiroshima.

  3. Sir/madam,

    Thanks for posting. I started writing reply to your post, which became too big, so I posted it as another post, same title No. II.

    Your point about horses is noted. It is a highly debated topic. Even the book I mentioned here has a chapter devoted to precisely that topic.

    http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/ait/ch44.htm.

    This indeed is the weak point of non-invasion model. But still not enough to settle the argument, especially if you consider recent genetic evidence.

    Some good references to understand where I am coming from (in my argument based on comparative religions and evolution of philosophy) are as follows.
    1. “The Way of Zen” – Alan Watts
    2. “The geography of thought” – Richard Nisbett
    3. “Collapse” – Jared Diamond

    If you have any recommended reading, I would appreciate it.

  4. Nice read.

    There are couple of books i would like to suggest you, since you are interested in AIT.

    P.N. Oak was one of my favorites on this topic(AIT). I dont know his book name of in English version. ( his full name must be Purandara Narayana Oak , if you happen to search)

    ” Volga to Gunga” is a collection of short stories by Rahula Sankrityayana. Originally written in Russian. The social situation of each stories are in chronological order. First one starts with naked pagans living near Volga river , last one of age of 1947. All stories constructed on ( pro- ) AIT.

    Waiting for more posts on this topic.. ;-)

    • excuse me ,’Volga to Ganga’ was originally written in hindi not in russian.

  5. I am fascinated by these discussions. I am from Kerala. ( The tip of South India )
    I have always read, fair skinned Aryans and the Dark Skinned Dravidians ( The south Indians )

    From childhood, I have learned this theory of Fair Aryans and the Dark Dravidians.
    But I have observed that, the most orthodox Brahmins ( So called Aryans) in Kerala and Dark skinned with all the features of our Dravidian concept…….The Brahmins never married from out of their GOTHRA and have preserved their original genetic features………..

    The orthodox Brahmins of Kerala, look very similar to the Tamil speaking communities……

    These dark skinned Brahmins follow the Rig Veda.
    The other group of Brahmins, in Kerala are light / brown coloured……….
    These Brown skinned Brahmins follow “Yajur Veda”

    The Gad Saraswath Brahmins ( may be from Saraswathy river ?? ) along the Canara ..Mangalore …maharashtra coastal region is lighter in color than the Brown, skinned Kerala Brahmins who follow the Yajurveda………..

    These Fair skinned Saraswatha Brahmins, look similar to the fair skineed Brahmins of Kashmir and the some areas of North India.

    I have also seen Dark skinned Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, Andhra pradesh etc……..The former Prime minister of India, Sr. Atal Bihari Vajpey is a Brahmin and is not fair skinned !!!!!!!!!

    I have also seen the so called ” Backward class” of people with Fair skin in the south and the North………..

    I am totally surprised that, why nobody has taken a look at this very very simple observation, which might be of global significance….

    The oldest sanskrit theater ” Koodiyattam” ( still exists in Kerala ) is performed by a class called ” Chakiars………who are dark skinned !!!!!!!!!!!

    ” Dark skinned, Brahmins, who follow the Rig Veda, ( who look very very Dravidian as per our vision………. )”

    Were they the most ancient ” Aryans” who wrote the Rig veda………

    So were Dravidians, were the writers of Rig Veda ??

    Did we do a mistake by making the “Aryan” “Dravidian” division ???

    One need to be a real intellectual , free of racism and politics and unbiassed to look in to these facts…

    vijay
    USA

    • Dear
      Vijay Dravidians and Arya divide was created by English in British Raj. Even Dravidians are Arya. Dravid is a shakha(Branch) of arya as others. Don’t confuse with foolish theories of Invaders.
      I want to connect with you.
      I have a small collection of thoughts and have also tried to brief our large defaced history in my blog. I will welcome your comment. I need support of people like you.

      Yours
      ARYA DAAS

    • Please check these links.

      1.

      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-saraswati-river-civilization/

      2.

      http://arya.blog.co.in/2008/12/07/aryan-invasion-is-a-myth-by-stephen-knapp/

      3.

    • VIJAY THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY DIVISION UPON ANYPEOPLE UPON COLOUR CASTE OR RELIGION NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE TREATED JUST GOOD OR BAD.ARYANS OR CAUCASIAN RACE DID INVADE AND INFLUENCE INDIA THERE IS EVIDENCE YOUR ANALYSIS OF BHRAMINS COLOUR ON THE WHOLE IS WRONG THERE ARE SON MANY FAIR SKINNED BHRAMINS IN KERALA BHRAMIN CONVERTED CATHOLICS AND MUSLIMS SINCE THEIR HISTORY COMES FROM ARYAN RACE ORGINATED FROM GERMANY.THERE ARE SO MANY DARK BHRAMINS SINCE EVEN BHRAMINS MIXED WITH SO MANY DRAVIDIAN PEOPLE .DRAVIDIANS ARE NORMALLY BROWN OR BLACK SKINNED ARYANS MORE FAIR SKINNED LIKE IN NORTH INDIA PAKISTAN AND AFGANISTAN IRAN MIDDLE EAST AND IN EUROPE.ITS NOT THE COLOUR I AM STRESSING ON SINCE YOU NEED A GOOD HEART TO BE A HUMAN BEING THAN FAIR SKIN.I AM FAIR SKINNED KERALITE NOT MENTIONING IT FOR ASSERTION PURPOSE BUT SINCE YOU SAID MOST BHRAMINS ARE OF DARK TINGE IT IS NOT COMPLETELY TRUE AS ALL MY FAMILY IS OF FAIR SKIN.I DONT WANT TO MENTION CASTE SINCE I HATE CASTE SYSTEM.BUT WHEN YOU ARE SUBMITTING A WRITTEN DOCUMENT FOR USING AS A REFERENCE IN GENETIC STUDY ITS BETTER TO PROVIDE ALL ANGLES THAN WHAT YOU FEEL GOOD.THANKS

  6. please include my posting

  7. Hi Vijay,

    Your observation is true and very interesting. Now that you mentioned it, even I remember several of my Brahmin friends who are dark skinned and several of my friends from SC/ST who are fair skinned.

    Dravid/Aryan theory really needs re-examination. Lots of ancient Indian history needs re-examination.

    Kedar

    • SOMANJI PLEASE LET ME KNOW OTHER THAN THEEYA COMMUNITY IN THALASERRY WHICH SC ST PERSON WAS AIR SKINNED IN KERALA.ITS OBVIOUS THAT YOU DONT LIKE OR FANCY FAIRSKINNED PEOPLE BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH CAN YOU SHOW ONE PERSON WHO IS FAIRSKINNED IN SC ST OTHER THAN THIYA WHO IS FAIR SKINNED.YOU CAN SEE IN KARNATAKA AND ANDHRA AND EVEN IN TAMIL NADU BUT IN KERALA ITS DIFFICULT.ALL FAIRSKINNED PEOPLE ARE NOT BAD SO POLARISING FAIRSKIN IS ALSO BAD SINCE AFTER READING YOURS AND VIJAYS ARTICLE AND THE COMBO YOU HAVE CREATED FOR BOTH IT VERY OBVIOUS WHY YOU TRYING TO CORRCET HISTORY BY SAYING ARYAN THEORY DOES NOT EXSIST.I AM PROUD TO BE A FAIRSKINNED PERSON WHO CAN LOVE WITH PASSION ANY SKINNED PERSON FROM ANY PART OF THE WORLD WITHOUT ANY INHIBITIONS.ALSO TRUTH IS TRUTH SO DONT BEND TRUTH FOR YOUR MENTAL SATISAFACTION.THANKS.

  8. Dr. Jagannath Dixit form Illinois, U.S.A. has done expetensive genetic research in finding origin of chitpavan brahmins from kokan-maharashtra. He found their origin lies in six places. Europe, Greece, Israel, Ethiopia, Middle east and Parsia. His book ‘Chitpavanism’ explains many facts.

    Microbiologist-Dr. Spencer wells of Harvard, has done again extensive research in origin os Indians, Native Americans and Europeans. He found a person in Kazgistan-north of Afganistan-that carrys all three genes.

  9. I have seen kerala brahmins who could beat any European in their color. But truely these are rare I suppose.

    Let us talk about the Namboodiri Brahmins, the strictest in all of India. they must have been a very Aryan looking people when they first came, but with their lifestyle, not many were left. A lot of them converted to Christianity (Syrian Christians) and many married into the Nair Caste.

    What was left were very few. It has been said that the rich and powerful Nairs took away many of the fair and handsome Namboodiris.

    As for the Iyers, i can say that the Kerala Iyers (who are strictly a Tamil group) are pretty Aryan compared to their Tanjavur counterparts. Why I dont really know except to conjecture-that a large Aryan bunch must have come to Kerala and intermarried.

  10. and it is not so much color as features

  11. If you read Lokamanya Tilak’s book ‘Arctic Home of Vedas’, you find many answers to origin of Aryas.

  12. Yes, I have to read that book.

    I have read “Geeta Rahasya” and he briefly touches some points. However a lot of new ancient artifacts and places have been found since his time.

    I have something to post related to linguistics. I will post it soon.

    Comments like yours encourage me. Thanks.

    K

  13. Yes , languages! It fascinates me to see the similarity in greek alphabets and sanskrit alphabets. Also the way words end with ‘aha’ in sanskrit and in Native american languages.
    And similarity many myths or superstitions. Including seeing deer in journey is a bad luck.

  14. Can any one tell me if the Aryan invasion of India has been mentioned in the records that we may have of the old Egyptians, Chinese or other old civilizations?

  15. Nice

  16. about that ‘aha’ similarity between Sanskrit and the Native American languages. can you elaborate please? Thanks

  17. Can you tell me why there are many Indians from Kerala that are really light skinned? It makes no sense because the stereotypes are that most people from Kerala are dark skinned but I have seen many from Kerala that are more light skinned than those from Northern India

  18. Neville is right.There was migration of people into India though archaeo cannot substantiate it.Wilhelm Rau suggested if Aryan migration could ever be substantiated by archaeo because nomadic people leave behind no material culture.

  19. Indeed there was migration at some point. But the question is whether it was between fall of Indus civilization and dawn of Vedic culture.

    Yes, nomadic people don’t leave archeo trail. But neither they do leave prominent literary trail. The strong knowledge passing traditions required to build up on each others abstract thinking just don’t exist in nomadic cultures.

    And we are talking about cultural discontinuity of order never seen before and after this migration. So in this one incidence, there were nomadic tribes out-culturing, out-languaging an established civilization more than 2000 years old, spanning more than 1.5 million square Kms.

    Why this magnitude of cultural/linguistic/archeological discontinuity could not be made to happen by armies of Alexander, Chengiz Khan, Huns, Kushans, Turks, Afgans, British empire but a group of nomads did it?

    Every verse in Rig-veda is balanced for a “Chhanda” or ‘Vritta”, that makes it easier to sing. It is like poetry. It rhymes. So it is more likely that the authors were more concerned with rhyming than the precise meaning of the words. In that case is it a reliable source to reconstruct precise vocabulary?

  20. First of all there are no hard and fast rules which dictate the skin color based on caste. As for the aryan invasion, it is a pure myth. How can there be aryan invasion when we are all aryans? Another myth is that all brahmins and kshatriyas are supposedly aryans and that other backward castes constitute the dravidian stock. Such feeling has ingrained very deeply into the hearts of the people. Tamil Nadu is a perfect example with most of them being anti brahmin and pro backward caste. The term dravidian does not mean race, it is more of a ethnic group. To be more precise you can say that dravidians are a branch of the aryan people just like punjabis, sindhi, gujrati, bengali etc.

    Again you might argue that dravidians are dark skinned and hence are not of the same race as aryans. But when you live in the tropical climate for generations after generations you are bound to get dark and under the influence of constant heat your body frame tends to become smaller. Take the example of Europe, the northern europeans(Finns, Swedes, Danes) have a much lighter complexion than the southern europeans(Italians, Spaniards, Greeks). But we call them all Europeans. The same applies to all Indians.

    The only people to have migrated to india are the persians, the barbarians and the mongloids. Also you should remember the fact that all europeans descended from us. You can get a white from black but not a black from white, which implies that the original caucasians were black in color(not to be confused with africans) who inhabited the now “Lost Continent” of Lemuria(Kumari kandam). After Lemuria sank into the ocean the caucasians migrated to different parts of the world. It is the white people’s ignorance which makes them think that they are the Mankind’s chosen Race and that all other races are mud races. They are missing the obvious thing which tells that the caucasian race varies from jet black to pale white with every shade of brown in between.

  21. [...] My thoughts on Aryan Migration Theory [...]

  22. The Quirky, Engimatic Shifting Historical Data of an ‘Aryan Indus’ Civilization

    With the demise of the theory of an Aryan invasion, scholars have now taken on the idea that the Indus Valley Civilization is aryan in nature and origin. But this quirky idea cannot seem to hold well with the evidence which the archaeological explorations have produced in recent years. On one hand the civilization of the Vedas don’t seem to fit or to use a better word, correlate with the discoveries of the Indus valley excavations. There are several reasons this is so and proponents of an ‘Aryan Indus’ although they may reject the invasion idea, are desperate to paint an ‘Aryan Indus’ which certainly did not exist and are prepared to shift historical data to accommodate its ‘Aryan Indus’. Thus, an ‘Aryan Indus’ would seemingly but impossibly accommodate and comprise of the following:

    1) TWO sets of lifestyles, one described as nomadic and steppe like in the Vedas quite in contrast to the settled and urban life of the Harrapans. Here we have the IE or Aryans as you will, riding and warring as all nomads do on the plains of India, whilst the staid citienzry of the Indus are basking in luxurious trade with its neighbors.

    2) TWO modes of transport, of which the speed of the horse and chariot used by the nomadic intruders to settle disputes and in sports, whilst in the Indus the rich and contented people travel with the donkey and heavy wooden cart.

    3) TWO religions, first we have the Vedic religion dominated by warrior gods and nature gods to a nomadic people always praying for wealth and cattle and animistic in nature. The other religion is the Harrapan religion of the Indus people mostly connected with the animal kingdom and iconic.

    4) TWO sets of astronomic literature, the Vedic astronomy having the horse as one of its symbol and which is missing in the Indus one. Then, there is the Harrapan astronomy whose people were well versed in its intracies and very established.

    5) TWO languages of which we have the Vedic language well refined and used in ancient India, called Sanskrit. The other is the undecipherable Indus Scripts and its seals, still unbroken and a fascination for linguists. Used by the Indus people for its unparalleled value for its tremendous and burgeoning trading partners.

    6) TWO different funerary burial rituals, the Aryans cremated their dead through libations in the hope their loved ones reach the land of the Fathers. The Indus people buried their dead as is evidenced by the cemeteries discovered in their civilization.

    7) TWO eminent Indian scholars, Professors Jha and Misra among others have claimed to have deciphered the Indus language and its complicated writings. If this is true and world breaking , how come we don’t know what is the true nature of the Indus? All of these concerted attempts, so valiant and persevering seems to come to naught. So I ask, what is it? Vedic or indigenous Indus? One thing is certain though. All these failed attempts are done from the perspective of the Sanskrit language. Wrong, I say. All linguists should know that to decipher a language, there must be a related Rosetta Stone or a related root language. Obviously, the linguists of India are finding out that the Indus Scripts and seals are not related to Sanskrit, thus there is an ominous silence.

    8) There are TWO Indias. One that is fair to white skinned, the other dark skinned of which the fair to white ones occupy the northern half of India and the other the southern half of India. I am saying that if all the people of India was indigenous, then all of them would have been dark skinned from living from time immemorial under the blazing tropical sun. But this is not so. Thus, there was an ancient European intrusion into India sometime in its history. Professor Spencer Wells an eminent geneticist and anthropologist among others states that there is an intrusion of East European genes from the steppes of southern Russia, thus giving India its fair to white population from the time of the Rgveda. He has also traced the ancestry of the dark skinned people from Africa who were the first to occupy India.

    This is fantastic , here we have a civilization just emerging from the Stone Age with its brilliance and is credited with ALL of the above, a double of every facet of human life. Is this possible? This quirkiness of an’Aryan Indus’ has western and eastern scholars and historians baffled. To speak of an ‘Aryan Indus’ with such glaring contradictions in its society and lifestyle is probably a minor embarrassment to its proponents, for what can be more embarrassing than to shift historical dates to accommodate a quirky theory? Best of luck to its proponents.

    ——————————————————————————–

    • Listen. Are you brain dead or do you just enjoy alleging ludicrous falsehoods that are entirely unsubstantiated by careful analysis of Harappan archaeology and Rigvedic verses. First of all white skin, and it is LIGHT SKIN, not white skin, is the result of environmental conditions as well as genetics that has nothing necessarily to do with Iron Age migrations. On the other hand science indicates a West Asian autosomal cline since the Neolithic times in the North Indian populations suggesting demic diffusion due to the spread of agriculture. On the second hand Harappan religion coincides with the worship of the Asura Apam Napat, who created the Universe. The seal of the triple horned god and the mention of a triple horned creator in the Rig Veda all indicate the close similarity. The cremation is only mentioned in late Rig Vedic verses which stray far from the family books in the Rig Veda. Look at the Rig Vedic hymns carefully and you will see the similarity

    • One more thing. The Rig Veda NEVER MENTIONS STEPPE ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS OR A NOMADIC LIFESTYLE. You are a kurganist. Best of luck with your BS (Bad Science) and Gimbutean allegations. The Vedas mention flora and fauna consistent with Afghanistan, Pakistan and Northwest India. An Aryan Indus is perfectly consistent with cultural aspects of Harappa which have been archaeologically proven to include fire altars, swastikas, horse bones, bull iconography. On the other hand steppes lack fire altars and religious iconography that characterizes the Aryan people. Where is the worship of Agni on the steppes? Your allegations of an intrusion of East European genes is so easily proven wrong by the basal diversity of R1a1 which is also found in tribal groups. Your naive allegation of Eastern European genes does not account for the virtual absence of the M458 subclade in the Indian subcontinent. I suggest you improve your academic research by reading accurate genetic studies on Indian populations. If anybody is quirky its Marija Gimbutas and anyone who believes her outdated theories.

  23. At one stage, quite sometime ago, this world of ours was very cold. The Northern part and the southern part if this world were covered with thick caps of ice. Human habitation was impossible. Human beings lived around equator where it was warm.
    As the world became wormer human beings travelled north -from the equator region northwards.

    The Aryan people living in India travelled north and thus settled in Europe etc. They took the Sanskrit language etc with them. By living in colder climates the former Aryans became lighter skin coloured. The darkest people even today live around the equator. This happened may be 10-15 thousand years or so a go.

    There was no such nonsense as migration from Europe to India. This story of Europeans migrating to India was cooked up by the English to humiliate the Indians and tell them that they were inferior to the English – the Indian monkeys had just come down the tree i .e. lesser civilized. – a technique to humiliate the Indians and thus submit to the English as superior race. i.e. Macaulayism.

    The Europeans still regard themselves as racial superiors. They have manufactured history to maintian this.

    The lighter coloured Indians lived in the cooler part of India whereas the darker ski nIndians live in the warmer parts.

    When Alexander was defeated by Indians he fled India disguised as a woman. No European history bookl will tell you that. Instead they say he left his generals to look after his conqured land. Whereas the truth is he fled leaving his army in India. The soldiers were all single and they mixed with the locals. This led to some odd looking Indians.

    It is not the genes from any part of Europe – it is the Indian gene that is in Europe, The Europeans will tell any amount of lies to maintian his superiority.

    Of course history is written by the victor not the defeated. English wrote the “modern history.” of Europeans coming to INdia. TRUTH AND JUSTICE SPEAKS FROM THE BARRELL OF A GUN.

  24. Really Who are the Aryans and where they have come from none knows, but look Indus has got ‘Shivalingam’ still which is worshiped by Indians (so called Aryans). What a bullshit comment as those who were the whites are Aryans and Blacks are dravidians, who has written those children history books must have single mind to corrupt the minds of children not the intellectual adults.
    If Aryans have migrated than why not they have flourished in the same way as they ancestors Europeans. Invasion and Migration are two different things, Invasion -called when once civillization is strong enough to take care of themselves and want an expansion, where as migration is done under weak and scarse conditions. Simply if it was a migration than what was the scarse condition (famine, flood, calamity) had happened that led the Aryans to migrate to South, or were Aryans strongest civilisation at that time to invade to another civilization???
    Since childhood I was reading to all such things but no body was able to explain. what is the evolutionary history of horse? Where had the evolution of bull taken place? Its similar to the hoax of NASA’s moon landing by Neil armstrong in 1969. Why indian history is perceived as per the views of some old historians why not a new research is being taken to highlight the facts. Lets end this hoax of Aryans and start a fresh looking at Indian history and if the things which come out negating the existance of Aryans than please first change class Seventh Text book. It is corrupting the mind of children and teaching them the same policy of DIVIDE & RULE!!!

  25. I hope you enjoy this blog and print it in your magazine if possible. Thanks.

    The Indus Valley Civilization: Its Reality and Maddening Prevarications of Academia.

    Ever since the discovery of the IVC, the rush to Aryanize its society and culture has filled books, papers,

    media forums and other such articles and such entities has funded and encouraged historians and writers to

    let loose their imaginations in order to rewrite the history of India. The fierce debate whether the IVC is

    Aryan or not has opened up emotions and a stirring of nationalistic feelings among Indians of different social

    and political persuasions and has led to the rewriting of some history books. Even though the undertaking

    and exposing of the vast archaeological empire of the Indus still remains buried below the ground, opinions

    and speculations still persist that further and more radical change be made to the history of India.

    The proven point that the Aryans did not invade India and that horses existed in its society are two areas

    juxtaposed between the migrationist theories and those who proposed an “Aryan India” Between this sliver

    of Aryan and Indus woodwork, lies the heart of the matter, its linch-pin— the horse. Whoever can prove that

    the horse existed at the Indus empire will cap a belated crowning glory and achieve at the same time a

    kind of immortality in Indian history. The playing with historical dates like pushing them back further in time

    sounds like Russian roulette in order to achieve the inevitable and if such a hand can be played and the

    horse can be accommodated to form Indian history as among other things, thus far are historians are willing

    to go. The claims of historians and other writers of horse remains has so far has not been proven or

    recognized by some of local and international academia, even though such claims have been taken up by

    readers of different sorts of books and articles. The horse have remained evasive to not only archaeologists

    who would know one when they have analyzed its bones but to those who advocate its existence at the

    Indus. The so called tentative discovery of horse bones in the cities of the Indus, is the one weakness of

    those who want to weld Aryan history and Indus history together. This, I think will fail. The Indus civilization

    does not have a mythology that speaks of the existence of horse and chariot. First of all, all peoples have

    from their beginnings tales of mythology and from this, their civilizations are born, their society evolves, their

    beliefs entrenched and their livelihood maintained. Without these a people may not survive as a strong entity

    such like the Greeks and the Indian civilizations. Mythology is the fountain of a people, where a kind of fairy

    tale comes down to generation after generation, where images of the mythology are graven in the minds of

    its citizens and from which stories of daring and derring do are told. Greek mythology is filled with horses

    such as Pegasus and Arion, so we know that the Greeks knew about horses, Helios, the Sun god and the

    horses and also the Trojan horse. Our Hindu civilization also has a mythology of horses of the Sun, as well

    as other places mentioned in the Vedas and the Swat culture is one of the first places that the horse

    appeared in India. But can that be said of the Indus civilization? Where is the mythology of the horse and

    chariot in its ancient belief system? The belligerent screaming and writing by academia of horse bones in

    the Indus does not prove anything. There is not a shred of evidence of a horse culture or part of a

    mythologic reference to a horse or chariot in the history of the writing of the Indus nor in its society and the

    isolated claims of nationalistic writings has no foundation whatsoever. Claims of horse presence in the

    absence of a mythology in comparison with Hindu or Greek is not only a failure, but a historical greed to

    fulfill nationalistic grandeur for India which would be penitently false. I am sure Hindus would not like to

    incorporate a false version of historical data in their proud history. I personally would abhor such a travesty.

    • Such false history based on Aryan invasion and Aryan migration theory is hurting the sentiments of hindus all around the world.

  26. Juven , you are hiding fact that as per opposers of AIT/AMT , IVC planned town period is a post-veda period. Even AMT supporters says that swastik sign is post-veda , but IVC has many swastik seals excavated. So, it matches well with AMT opposing view.

    `Ashwa’ may not be exactly Horse. Also, Ass in English is linguistially nearer to Ashwa than Horse. Famous Unicorn sign of IVC is of horse/ass with one horn. Swat Valley people still make woolen sweaters with IVC Unicorn sign where as most indians have forgot that sign.

    Yoga is derived from Veda ( this is not my assumption , but Yoga scripts says so ). But, IVC excavations have given us many small terracota statues of men in different Yoga postures. So, it means that IVC people were well verse with Yoga. So, that means that Veda is pre-IVC. Even, this matches well with AMT opposers.

    IVC had loos like current western style one , but in historical periods we don’t find such western style loos in whole India.

    Your Aryan tribe in central asia were not performing any cremation and practicing burials ( same as IVC indians ), so we can not say that cremation was introduced by some Aryan tribes migrating to India.Finding of Painted Red Wares don’t imply that look this is marker of aryan tribes. How urban sanitary preferences changed ( and remember that western style loo & modern plumbing in west is just 2 – 3 centuries old. Your previous kings were not using western style loos ! ) or funeral preferences changed – it has nothing to do with so called Aryan migration.

    Since Veda is pre-IVC planned town period and hence you find two different Indias.

    So your arguments are not right and hides many aspects to common readers not knowing that deep in this matter.

  27. I read your ideas and yes, me too after rediscovering history for the last 10 years I came to agree with some points of your ideas

    I agree that the european migration didnt took place in the second millenia BC, but rather a lot before that, my thoughts were about 5000 BC but I must accept your genetic proof of 6000 BC

    however what this proves is that the mahabharata and ramayana ARE the creations of indo-europeans and not the Harappans

    your idea that the epic creations were made by the Harappan only stands if we accept the date of 1800-1500 as the european invasion, but if we accept the 6000 BC, as proven by genetics, than all the astrals date of 18 February 3102 is well within the indo-european presence.

    also many details from Mahab.. and ramayana talk about plant and animal species which are not indigenous to India , but rather to europe, further proof of the european origins of the invaders, and also the total lack of exemples of indigenous fauna from India. this is for the oldest fragments of the tow epopeeas.

    from the language point of view todays indian dialects are filled with european morfems, morfems which are almost unchanged in the south-eastern part of europe, while modified on other parts of europe and asia.

    • The entire geography of Ramayana & Mahabharata is centred in India. Please do not talk nonsense.

      The capital of the central characters, the Pandavas , was Indraprastha which is today’s Delhi.

      The capital of Shri Ram, in Ramayana was Ayodhya, which is in UP,India.

  28. “At one stage, quite sometime ago, this world of ours was very cold. The Northern part and the southern part if this world were covered with thick caps of ice. Human habitation was impossible. Human beings lived around equator where it was warm.
    As the world became wormer human beings travelled north -from the equator region northwards.

    The Aryan people living in India travelled north and thus settled in Europe etc. They took the Sanskrit language etc with them. By living in colder climates the former Aryans became lighter skin coloured. The darkest people even today live around the equator. This happened may be 10-15 thousand years or so a go.”

    Mr. R. D. Mishra, Why should a people living in a warm climate travel to a cold inhospitable one. Your article does not make sense. Historically, people from the northern cold climes left their homes to travel and conquer from the South. There is no historical data where people from the South ever travel to the inhospitable and bitter cold regions of the north to settle or to conquer. The movement was always from the north if you read your history well enough. Before the Aryans or Indo-Europeans came south, there were no horses, chariots or swastikas in the southern hemisphere or anything of the sort. Even the great Egyptian empire did not possess the horse.

    • Actually the presence of Aryan loan words in Finno Ugric suggest a northward cline

      • There were also elite dominance chiefdoms North of India suggested by the Aryan substrate in Uralic and Finno Ugric. Aryans conquered radially, something you don’t seem to get. Swastikas make a much earlier appearance in the IVC than they do in Central Asia. I suggest you start providing some reliable facts instead of naive assumptions

  29. Hello people,

    I am replying in response to those people who ASSERT that anyone who tries to go AGAINST the AIT are history revisionists and their thoughts come from active imaginations….

    mmmmmm….

    it bewilders me that people come on such sites and make such comments without viewing their suggestions with an open mind…

    the AIT suggests that people came from outside of india and bought their culture and the language SANSKRIT with them and left it with the indians….

    first stump –

    the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0 ONLY entered EUROPE in the 8th century thanks to the ARABS who owe their mathematical knowledge to the ancient Indians…

    so how is it that these poor deluded people with their over active imaginations expect us to believe our Indian knowledge came from outside?

    the first time the world heard of an AIT was when Max Mueller invented it to help fuel German NAZI nationalism. So in fairness any one promoting the AIT can be considered to be a racist who does not want to accept that CAUCASIANs are pale Indians…

    CAUC – ASIAN

    2nd stump –

    notice how they move the goal posts every time their theories fall flat on their faces? first it was an Aryan Invasion – then when it became known that the TRUE meaning of the word ARYAN….

    ARYAN means – ‘follower of VEDIC life’ – thus they would not have behaved in such a primitive manner to invade they changed it to ARYAN migration theory…

    and as an act of desperation and as a safety net is the PIE language… the non-existent language that the west are trying to create so they can create an ‘alternate pocket of reality’ that will then be propagated as the TRUTH…

    we can talk about Hebrew, Latin, Greek and Sanskrit because they all exist – yet somehow these people have managed to make a fairytale non existent language become an academic construct & topic…

    who are the ones with their heads in the clouds?

    the joke is that Latin, Greek and the Indo Euroean langauges are called Indo – European because they are orignally derived from a broken-watered down version of SANSKRIT… so they are like leaves on a branch with the roots being SANSKRIT…

    so how is it they expect us to believe that people came from Europe with languages that originate from SANSKRIT, yet arrived on the shores of India with the paternal language to SANSKRIT?

    thats like saying breaking a branch of a tree and planting it next to the tree, means that the branch gave birth to the tree it was broken off in the first place….

    mmm…

    just doesn’t make sense does it?

    Thats like the English marching over to Italy and claiming that Latin comes from their English language….

    are birds born still?with feathers? then start to breath, fly and grow younger day by day until it turns into an egg?

    no – that would be stupid and illogical as is the AIT, AMT, the PIE language and is BLATANTLY NAZI flavoured propaganda being propagated by white racist people who feel that insecure, that they need to convince the world they are PURE…

    HENCE –

    the very very fair, very very sexy

    adverts in india to condition you guys into being white – and thus making it easier for them to claim us indians want to be like them….

    pleeeeeeeease…

    very very dark, very very happy…

    The reasons are quite simple for their childish behaviour – if you control the past, you control the present, if you control the present time then you will control the future…

    the past, the present and the future run concurrently…

    Wicket 3 –

    Mother of SANSKRIT ?

    Just one of SANSKRITs special qualities is that it has over 65 words for Earth and 70 for water. Each one being originally SANSKRIT and NOT derived from any other language…

    these synonyms for the word water which then mulitply into 280 words with prefixes…

    when the west can produce evidence of their cultures that had numbers as high as 10×53 as early as 3500 bc or way before, if they intend to convince us that they bought this knowledge with them – then yes it can be a possibility…

    until then it is no different from when they thought the world was flat…

    they say this, they say that, they thought the world was flat!!

    and this was many centuries after having the zero, the moon and the sun as clues!!!! and they want to claim they are the owners of VEDIC knowledge….

    the Vimanika shatra?

    aeronautics along with other topics of great ANFRACTUOSITY existed in india whilst others cultures were just developing…

    ‘Your either with us or with the terrorists….’ DUBYA BUSH

    well us indians can use the same level of primitive forms of neural linguistic programming if we chose to regarding this debate – but then again we are not willing to lower our level of neural activity insulting our cereberum, our ancestors and our culture….

    ‘Your either with us, or with the NAZIS….’
    easy as that…

    If us Indians continue to shine the shoes of imperial master s who wish to dominate us then so be it – in the future indians will all be mutating from the ‘very very fair very very sexy’ products and will sing songs about McDonalds, KFC and a Pizza Hut in their schools like the children do here in the UK…

    yes its true the food here is so crap that they have to use Neuo linguistic programming on the children whilst they’re at school to permanently embed their adverts into your sub conscious mind so that you eat that crap…

    until you are old enough to think….

    they even made into a hit song a few years back!!!!

    these tactics they deploy on their own people so don’t be fooled by the smiles of weasels, fools & tools dear Aryavarthans…

    on that note i will say..

    oh yeah what happened on the 21st September 1995?

    They said it was ‘mass hysteria’ yet it started with one person….

    They said it was ‘capillary action’ – so why doesn’t it happen everyday on any other stuatues etc?

    If it as an illusion then why can’t the worlds greatest magicians recreate it ?

    Jai hind…

    Love, Peace & TRUTH

    Kal-k

    The 3rd Side of a Coin…
    The Beginning & The End…

    • mahanam asti etee….

  30. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the person who set up this website hosting this forum, as it is through these means that us Indians will be able to communicate with each other mellifluously.

    http://www.ibollytv.com/idocumentary.php

    on this above link there are a few documentaries regarding this topic and there are 2 that favour the AIT, and one that dismantles it in a step by step manner.

    I would advise people to watch the two that attempt to use primitive marketing techniques to promote the AIT first. This is so one can see the difference between charlatan academics and those who want to present to you the truth in an unbiased manner.

    (western medicine – deals with the symptoms, Vedic medicine deals with the root of the problem. In the same way these conspiracy theorists who promote the AIT will correlate what ever information they can to weave the fabric of their veil, but like a spider web you can walk through it, or like a veil in front of something hidden you can remove it if you know how or that it exists…)

    One will be able to witness the DESPERATE attempts to slot in their ‘alternate pocket of reality’ in many different ways so that it would embed it self into the sub conscious mind if one was unaware of this.

    Our lecturers use the same method here in the UK, when they want to EMPHASISE a particular point – like waving their hand whilst saying ‘the richer WEST…’ like cheap magicians….

    Origins of Civilization-INDIA-The Empire of Spirit | 2002

    Sanskrit Language-The Most Scientific Ancient Spirit.. | 2004

    The above 2 are the ones that promote the AIT – and notice how they only go briefly into it ONLY explaining one side of the story…
    ———————————————————————————
    Scientific Verification of Vedic Knowledge in Hind | 2003

    This is the documentary that dismantles the AIT in such a step by step manner that the it no longer has a leg to stand on, also covering Frawleys’ paradox.

    I would also like to point out that when it comes to history we can ONLY consider it to be

    ‘the story so far…….’

    it is the ‘dot dot dot dot’ – that is important because we are always finding new things as Mother Earth begins to unveil some of her hidden secrets….

    like the tsunami uncovering a hidden city and washing up the skeleton of an unknown ‘perhaps’, pre-historic type of oceanic dinosaur.

    Most of the people who are still trying to clutch to the invented AIT are still using ‘out of date’ information and changing their story constantly to suit their needs. This is how cheap magicians work in order to keep their illusion going.

    I would like to dismantle all of their so called evidence in one cleans swoop, but it won’t be today since the top left half of my body is still partially paralysed as it has been since the first day i posted here, hence the bad spelling.

    I hope the above information will be helpful to those truth seekers. Please do not be discouraged by cheap blows of charlatans who TRY and suggest anyone who goes AGAINST the AIT are history ‘revisionists’.

    Which is where life will display her iconic & ironic sense of humour, as it the AIT which is the ultimate example of a work that comes from ‘a historic revisionist’ – MAX MUELLER.

  31. This topic is very important to me and I am writing a book called ‘The R-e-Un Connection’. The reason for me spelling the word in that manner is to EDUCATE the west as to how they should pronounce it.
    As R-e-Un

    – in the west they pronounce it as AIR-IAN, thanks to the NAZIS. Why is it only in the Western ARYAN realm that you find the peace loving word ‘ARYAN’ associated to NAZISM, hate, war & lies?

    Maybe because such people are opposed to the realm of LOVE,PEACE & TRUTH….

    The profits from the book are to help Professor Rao & others with their work at Dwarka and elsewhere, whilst some of the money will go towards restoring ancient Vedic temples.

    It will also dismantle the AIT, AMT and the PIE language in such a refined & defined ANFRACTUISITOUS manner, that their construct of illusion that promotes delusion, will end up resembling sand…

    As an Indian born in Britain, I will say that if us Hindus don’t know WHO we ARE, then we are inviting people into our DOMAIN to TELL us who they want us to be.

    No matter how hard the strongest person tries to push over a tree, they will fail. This is because the tree has roots, and this is the same for us Aryavarthans, if we do NOT have our roots firmly attached then we will wither and die whilst being diluted down.
    ———————————————————————————
    The rumour about the ARYAN / DRAVIDIAN – 2 indias etc is nonsensical nonsense. This was a simple attempt – and successful in some cases, of divide and conquer to make the inhabitants of the land fight amongst themselves. It is a known ‘alleged’ fact that Aborigines and African people migrated to India, therefore that does NOT make them the original inhabitants.

    There are Afro-Caribbean people in the remotest parts of Wales here in the Uk, does that mean they are the original people of that land?

    If India was originally inhabited by those two groups – then their should be lots and lots of mixed race people in India if the AIT happened. This is because when a person, from the Afro-Caribbean community has children with someone from a Caucasian group, they have mixed race children that do NOT look Indian.

    That is why the cheap charlatan attempts to use genetics cannot work in this ANFRACTUISITOUS topic. It is obvious that after spending 70,000 years in India that the newly arrived tribes would eventually amalgamate with the local inhabitants.

    That is why you have south indians who look afro-indo or indo-afro… in the same way if an AIT had happened where all the ‘mix raced’ people?

    There aren’t any because there was no AIT, this is the reason why some indians will obviously have similar genetic mapping as African or Aborigine people because of the inevitable nature of tribes amalgamating.

    yes tribes from the middle east invaded india bringing their new religions where the necks of animals were slit and hung upside down…with their newly developed ‘back to front writing’ which we call Semitic languages, but that does NOT make them ARYANS.

    (which is why Buddha preached against what was happening in hinduism at the time, not preaching against SANATANA DHARMA itself as he was actually preaching it, without the use of GOD)

    One thing GENE MATLOCK does is to try cleverly promote the Indo-Hebrews as the ARYANs in his works – he is another one of these fake friends of india, who uses his knowledge to create ‘alternate pockets of reality’.

    What all of these charlatans forget is that you cannot destroy the TRUTH, you can hide it, hide from it, pretend it doesn’t exist. But the TRUTH is, it will always be there, behind the veils & illusions, if one looks hard enough it will find a way to reveal itself.

  32. Before i post the last segment to my post please may I ask you Aryavarthans….

    – where were all the Hindu fanatics to help the Indian Christians against IDIOTS pretending to be hindus?

    There are 150 million Indian Muslims ready to defend India, where were all the Hindu fanatics to protect our Christian neighbours?

    After all a TRUE hindu fanatic would have stopped these acts as they are anti-dharmic actions…

  33. Lets examine the biggest bunch of charlatans, who we can use as an example of propagating ‘alternate pockets of reality…’

    ‘Saddam has weapons of mass destruction’ DUBYA BUSH
    ‘We know Saddam has WMD, in this region….’ Rumsfield
    ‘Saddam has WMD and can DEPLOY them in 45minutes..’ Tony Blair

    These were various statements read out by the puppets at the White House & elsewhere to justify their war whilst using primitive scare mongering tactics to get public support by promoting FEAR.

    why is Colin Powell no longer at the white house?
    on the day he quit, he ALLEGEDLY threw the script he was expected to read, up in the air, whilst shouting ‘ this is bull-turd’ whilst marching off.
    (quoting from various secondary sources)

    ‘GOD told me to invade Iraq…’ DUBYA

    see how charlatans will attempt to clutch to anything to keep their illusion going? what they don’t understand is that the harder you grab, at something that’s not yours, the quicker it will slip away, or something else of yours will, whilst you hold onto something that isn’t yours, a bit like the American economy whilst they grasp on to the oil & souls of other countries to secure their resources… karma, dharma..

  34. 95% of Indian ‘sources’ and ‘scholars’ can very safely be ignored (Phulgenda Sinha, D.N. Jha, and N.C. Chaudhury are probably most of the remnant 5%) as self-serving propaganda. Witzel, Mallory and lately David W. Anthony, along with the whole centuries-long tradition of Indo-European research, have solved the Aryan question once and for all:

    ARYANS = WHITE MEN FROM THE CASPIAN DEPRESSION.

    They came, they saw, they conquered, they left language and some other crap behind to confuse the latter-day enfranchised “national” Indians of wholly non-Aryan extraction. And with the internet there’s no end in sight to their impudent yiddling to the contrary.

    So while those beautiful Vedic verses probably did at some point reverberate among the muddy walls of Harappa, as the author of this stupid blog so eagerly imagines, they did so only after white men whispered them to the bright blue sky.

  35. ‘95% of Indian ’sources’ and ’scholars’ can very safely be ignored……..’

    and we are supposed to believe the people who claimed the world was flat as reliable sources?

    or that they are ARYAN because they say so, yet have no way to sustain their racist bigoted claims?

    ‘ARYANS = WHITE MEN FROM THE CASPIAN DEPRESSION’

    why can you not back your claim and expect us indians to believe this just because you SAY so?

    intimidated by intellectual conversation that requires anfractuosity is normally the first sign of weakness by people like you Marshall…..

    ‘So while those beautiful Vedic verses probably did at some point reverberate among the muddy walls of Harappa, as the author of this stupid blog so eagerly imagines, they did so only after white men whispered them to the bright blue sky.’

    look at the childish attack you make on the person who set up this blog – and your childish racist claim that these verses only existed after ‘white men’ whispered them into the sky –

    yet we know up until the 15th century – white people in the west thought the world was flat……

    mmmm……..

    yes it makes so much sense –

    see indians it is people like this who want to put us down to being nothing more than monkeys rather than acquiesce to the facts that are plentyful and incremental in their nature to display their true origins…

    so indians please get out your cloths, boot polish and line up to clean Marshalls shoes cos that is all he sees in us……

    and maybe the females should get together and create ‘murcha na pendas’ in honour of Marshall – and we can all celebrate that he has solved the whole ARYAN problem with such wise words…..

    get over it Marshall you know that the AIT, AMT and the PIE lie is crumbling like a mouldy cookie…. which is why you and others have to take such low blows that actually entertain those sat in the transcendental realm as it displays the same weakness as a flagging boxer throwing punches here there and everywhere – yet nowhere cos they never hit the target….

    i am so sorry you feel so low about yourself and have such low self esteem that you have to behave in such a way…

    good luck…..

    Marshall bhai Zindabad…..!!!!

  36. Looks like Marshall bhai’s punches landed on no other place than on his own face, perhaps causing his teeth to shatter with the final blow causing him to swallow both his words and crumbled teeth….

    sound like the AIT, AMT & the PIE lie too Marshall?
    ———————————————————————————
    What Is the PIE language?

    The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the unattested, reconstructed common ancestor of the Indo-European languages, spoken by the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The existence of such a language has been accepted by linguists for over a century, and there have been many attempts at reconstruction. Nevertheless, many disagreements and uncertainties remain.

    from

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

    ————————————————————————————
    That source language was never written down and is now extinct, but it has a name: it is called the “Proto Indo-European” language (“PIE”), and the family of languages believed to have developed from it is called “Indo-European” (“IE”).

    http://colfa.utsa.edu/drinka/pie/pie.html

    ———————————————————————————-
    The above are 2 quotes regarding the PIE language…

    If a person starts to watch a movie trailer and like what they see, they can choose to pursue watching the whole movie. So what I am doing is openly showing Indians the trailer of one of the biggest webs of deception ever to be created in the history of mankind, right under our noses in the 21st century.

    The difference between the movie trailer & the above 2, is that with a movie you are paying to be sold a lie. With the PIE lie it being sold to create an artificial construct – like a mini invisible cage for your mind. If you goto the trailer there are many more layers of the web to help you cocoon your mind into.

    Please, I have nothing to hide – so please go visit this trailer & see how far the web has been spun for yourselves. The stronger & bigger web, acts like a stronger & bigger net for the predator.

    These people are being psychologically obtrusive, displaying sheer opacity in the nature of how the VEDIC realm really existed, and creating deluded, obtuse minded people like Marshall telling us how it is with their wise words.

    For those who believe that the Kohi-Noor & the jewels ‘taken like candy from a child’ was their main objective I ask you to get real. The real Jewel in their crown will be to claim they were our masters in the past and givers of our heritage.

    Below is a link to a very well researched author who has a quote from a letter allegedly written by the German fantasist Max Mueller to his wife. In this letter he writes to his wife somewhere along the lines of

    ‘now that we have India under physical control we must now convert them to Christians…’

    This book is called Proof Of Vedic Cultures Global Existence

    http://www.stephen-knapp.com/death_of_the_aryan_invasion_theory.htm

    ———————————————————————————-
    The deluded people are like those who chase things like ‘immortality’, and need something to give them a sense of belonging. So they will do anything they can to clutch to this dream especially if it involves Satanic behaviour.

    After all a lie is Satanic, as is the creation of the PIE lie, whilst there are so many people suffering people in the world, acting in such a childish immoral way only display
    the actions of a non-Aryan. Once again how iconic & ironic.

    The thing they want to be the most, their actions have confirmed they are not. Like those who chase the secrets of immortality miss the whole point, which is that a pure soul lives forever in the minds & hearts of those touched. So the chasers spend their whole life looking for these secrets instead of ‘living’, and then they wonder why they are looking for it in the first place.

    Just like the NAZIS wanted to be pure, supreme & the master race, only to have karmic irony display quite the opposite.

    The below link is to a variety of book titles by Gene Matlock who is the charlatan who tries to cleverly promote our Jewish cousins as the Aryans….

    you can’t escape the reticle eyesight of karmic knight Mr Matlock.. but never the less his works give a different insight into our past and his research can come in handy.

    http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Matlock,%20Gene%20D

    this link appears to be his own website –

    http://www.viewzone.com/hinduturk.html

    Hope all the above helps provides an interesting read & help see the difference between the representation of our realm by Mr Matlock & Mr Knapp, and see why i would happily invite Mr Knapp to be a co-author along with the likes of Dr David Frawley to raise the VEDIC realm again like a phoenix from the ashes.

    Love, peace & TRUTH

  37. for every psychological term there is in English, there are 4 in Greek, and forty in Sanskrit.

    quote by A.K Coomaraswamy from ‘You Are Being Lied Too’ – Disinformation group

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KALsz08ijnkC&pg=PT357&lpg=PT357&dq=for+every+psychological+term+in+english,+there+are+4+in+greek,&source=web&ots=p16z7saVau&sig=uyEu6Tdq5TIJQGm9uoh_Ol3Z_vg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

    ———————————————————————————————
    The Vedas contain the knowledge of the following ;

    Art, Linguistics, Music, Literature, Economics, Religion, Weaponry, Space Science, Geometry, Logic, Technology, Hpnotism, Mathematics, Philosophy, Rituals, Health & Long life, Magic, Medicine, Architecture, Aeronautics, Spiritual Wisdom….

    65 words for Earth, 70 for water – (each being originally Sanskrit, not being derived from any other language) – the 70 synonyms for water then multiplies into 280 words words with prefixes for specific descriptions of rainfall…

    Takshila – 2700 years ago had students from Babylonia, Greece, Syria, Arabia & China…68 different streams of knowledge were available on the syllabus including the following;

    Vedas (thus all the above topics), Language, Grammar, Philosophy, Medicine, Surgery, Archery, Politics, Warfare, Astronomy, Astrology, Accounts, Commerce, Futurology, Documentation, Occult, Music, Dance..

    Gyaamiti – (geometry)
    Trikonamiti – (trigonometry)
    emerged in india 1000 BCE (if not earlier)

    tallakshanam = 10×53 being used as early 100BCE
    Krati = 34000th of a second

    ( why would we be using such intricate numbers? Both big & small? ‘YANTRA SARVASVA – The Encyclopedia of Machines, which includes the famous VYMANIKA SHASTRA which is only one volume or chapter in the works,that contains refined details of things like ‘spectrometers’ & alot more )

    Shushruta the father of surgery describes the details of more than 300 operations and 42 surgical processes in his compendium Shushruta Samhita classifying surgery into 8 types.

    plastic surgery in india 2600 years ago with 125 types of surgical instruments –

    ‘The Hindus were so advanced in surgery that their instruments could cut a hair longitudinally’ Mrs Plunkett…

    the above information is part of a permanent exhibition at
    BAPS SHRI SWAMINARAYAN MANDIR,
    105-119 Brentfield Road,
    Neasden
    LONDON
    NW10 8LD

    school children of all religions & cultures come visit this temple everyday via arranged tours with their institute….
    ———————————————————————————
    The VEDIC realm has 330 million deities just for this material realm, with another 330 billion deities for the realm external to this one, with each one having their own unique thread of metaphorical encrypted data opening a gate to their own kingdom of wisdom.

    Mmmmmmm…. I wander what they could be compared to? I suggest looking up at the sky at night….

    Which culture or nomadic group wants to claim they are the creators or the owners of this knowledge? With the their vast amounts of scholarly & academic evidence displaying the ANFRACTUOSITY required to back their claims?

    I will leave it as that, make your own minds up Aryvarthans..
    Please understand the only people who have a lucrative interest in promoting the AIT, AMT or the PIE lie are deluded people who have roots in NAZI ideology, just like Max Mueller who created the AIT to neuro liguistically programme Indians into believing they are INFERIOR….

    The only people who have to go through all that kind of trouble to do that to a race, are the ones displaying negativity due to a inner insecurity….thus making them inferior by their OWN actions, and this is what they have gone down in history for, and in some cases proud of. Are these the people whose minds & egos you Indian AIT promoters want to inflate?

    Interesting….

    Just with the above information one can see why they continually have to alter, or in some cases create new ‘conspiracy theories’ or constructs, always moving the goal posts, or creating new PIE models etc….

    What a joke – which court or judge would even consider the so-called laughable proof or evidence, the NAZI lovers desperately try to promote as worthy?

    Game, set & match….

    Love,peace & TRUTH

    Jai Hind

    Indian Born In Britain…

  38. Question, Did the Zero exist in the Indus civilization as a number? I am curious to know.

    • Ofcourse it did. The Europeans discovered zero from books that they found in the Arab world, that were translated from Sanksrit into Arabic. That is why the numbers are called Arabic numerals.

  39. As far as I know the zero is of Vedic origin , not from the Indus civilization. Is this correct?

    • No it isn’t. It is of a Hindu origin much later

  40. WIN, THANKS FOR REPLYING TO MY BLOG ON THE ARYAN QUESTION. MAY I ASK YOU ONE QUESTION? IS THE BRAHMI SCRIPT AND THE INDUS SCRIPT ONE AND THE SAME? IF SO THEN THE INDUS AND THE ARYANS ARE THE SAME. IF NOT WHAT THEN? CASE IN POINT— THE VEDAS IS TAINTED WITH STEPPE LIFE AND ARTIFACTS AND CUSTOMS AND RITES. CASE IN POINT– THE HORSE SACRIFICE. IF YOU AND YOUR ACADEMICS CAN SHOW ME ANY ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF HORSE SACRIFICE IN THE INDUS CIVILIZATIONS , I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT THE INDUS ANSWER. NEXT POINT- WHERE IS THE HORSE MYTHOLOGY OF THE INDUS CIVILIZATION? HOW CAN INDIAN ARCHAEOLOGISTS AND ACADEMICS ACCEPT THE INDUS CIVILIZATION AS ARYAN IN ORIGIN WHEN THE SCRIPTS AND SEALS DO NOT SPEAK OF A HORSE MYTHOLOGY? THIS ONLY SHOWS THAT THEY ARE PUSHING A POLITICAL AGENDA OR SOME OTHER MEANS. THE INDUS CIVILIZATION HOWEVER GREAT DOES NOT HAVE A SKY GOD AND HORSE MYTHOLOGY. THIS IS THE GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO AND YET THIS IS IGNORED BY INDIAN HISTORIANS. WHETHER THE ARYANS CAME BY CONQUEST OR MIGRATION IS IRRELEVANT TO ME. THE FACT IS THE VEDIC STEPPE LIFE PORTRAYED IN THE VEDAS IS REAL. THE INDUS CIVILIZATION ALTHOUGH GREAT IS NOT THE FOUNT OF INDIAN CIVILIZATION IN TERMS OF SPIRITUALITY AND MORALITY. THERE IS NO SUCH WRITINGS TO ILLUSTRATE THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE INDUS GAVE TO INDIA A VAST BODY OF KNOWLEDGE AS THE VEDAS. ITS WRITING IS NOT EVEN DECIPHERED AS YET. IT IS INDEED STRANGE THAT THE INDUS WHOSE WRITINGS IS UNDECIPHERED IS TOUTED AS THE ORIGINAL “VEDIC” CIVILIZATION. THIS IS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE. THE MOST CONRETE EVIDENCE OF VEDIC INDIAN RELIGION AND LIFE IS FOUND IN THE VEDAS THAT VAST STOREHOUSE OF OUR MOST HOLIEST WRITINGS. THAT IS VEDIC CIVILIZATION, THAT GAVE US ITS BRILLIANT LANGUAGE AND BELIEFS IN CONTRAST TO THE SCRIPTS AND SEALS WHICH IS NOT A LANGUAGE WITH BASIC GRAMMAR. ANOTHER CONTENTION IS THE CLAIMS OF DISCOVERY OF SUPPOSEDLY HORSE BONES IN THECITIES OFTHE INDUS. SURE THERE ARE HORSE BONES , HORSE BONES FROM THE ANIMALS OF THE ARYANS. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? THE ARYANS AND THE HARAPPANS DID LIVE TOGETHER EVEN UP TO TODAY. THE VEDAS ANDTHE OTHER TEXTS AS THE GITA, THE PURANA AND THE MAHABHARATA ALL SMACKS OF STEPPE LIFE. YOU MAY NOT LIKE TO HEAR THIS BUT IT IS A FACT. ANOTHER THING IS THAT YOU ARE WRONG ON THE SUBJECT OF CREMATION. CREMATION WAS PRACTICED ON THE RUSSIAN STEPPE ALONG WITH HORSE SACRIFICE AND SATI WITH THE SAME SIMILARITIES AS IN VEDIC INDIA. THERE IS ENOUGH ARCHAEOLOGICAL RECORD THAT THE INDUS BURIED THEIR DEAD IN WOODEN COFFINS AS IS EVIDENCED IN THE HUNDREDS OF BURIAL CEMETERIES IN THE INDUS. HOW CAN YOU DENY THIS? ALSO, FINALLY, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ILLUSTRATES THAT THE INDUS PEOPLE INTERACTING AND INTEGRATING WITH THE HORSE AND CHARIOT. NONE WHATSOEVER. THE MESOPOTAMIAN SOCIETIES SHOW THIS NOT THE INDUS.

    • Horse sacrifice does not appear until a much later part of the Rig Veda which comes after the family books. Again there is no mention of Caspian ecology in the Rig Veda whatsoever. Birch forests which are a prominent feature of steppes are not mentioned while the Asvattha, Khadira and Nyagrodha are all mentioned. As far as burial goes a house of clay is mentioned in the family books but cremation is only mentioned in Book 10. Both burial and cremation are mentioned in the Rig Veda so your allegations are irrelevant. Because the Rig Veda does not mention the linden and oak trees which have a common Indo European etymology the Rig Veda cannot be from the steppes period

  41. Hello Juven,

    Thanks for your comment. I would appreciate if you could type all in lowercase. Makes it easier to read.

    Now, the points you mentioned are the same things again and again everywhere. Even people who believe prevailing Aryan Migration come up with same points and people who believe otherwise also come up with same points. We are going in circles.

    Here is my take.

    Certainly at some point people came from outside India into India and established civilizations. Heck, we are all from Africa finally. However I think it is very doubt-prone when the far-ancient history of an entire sub-continent rests on a discipline like linguistics, which is highly subjective to interpretation. If we had found some forts and caves by Indo-Eurasian tribes that supposedly conquered Indus, we could accept it. Not purely on linguistics.

    Why I say that? I will give you two examples. I have studied Sanskrit from people who have studied Sanskrit their whole life in India. And I have found their interpretation and interpretation of Western scholars different.

    For example, the meaning of word Shardula according to my Sanskrit prof. is Lion. But the meaning of Shardula according to Prof. Witzel is Tiger.

    Second example, the word European word “ass” (an animal between donkey and horse) is closer to “ashwa”. So why not say the word “ashwa” means “ass” and not “horse” ? They have found lots of ass bones, but no horse bones at Indus sites. How are we so sure that when Vedas talk about “ashwa” it means horse, not ass?

    There are many many examples like that.

    Second, archeological footprint. Indians have accepted first Farsi and then English linguistic influence. But in each case the conquerors have left behind more buildings and stuff compared to the same period Indians. Because the conquerors were more advanced than contemporary Indians. There is no example in the world of a civilization with smaller archeological footprint overthrowing the language and culture of a civilization with vastly bigger archeo footprint.

    Your claim that the Vedas and Geeta talk about life on Steppe is not accurate. Vedas and Sanskrit texts talk abundantly about mountains and rivers and also sea (“Samudra”). But they rarely mention lake. Lake was the most prominent natural geographic feature on Steppes. No?

    Also Vedas and Puranas talk about seven rivers all the time. There are very few regions in world which have seven rivers almost all originating at same point. None of them lies in Steppes.

    How about genetic research that shows the Indus people were not different from people in India today? How about the geographical study that found the vdic river Saraswati (on whose bank 80% of Indus sites lie) was dried up in 1900 BC?

    Do I think the European and American historians don’t know anything about Indus and Sanskrit? No I don’t. I think they know about Indus and Vedic civilizations as much as people at Lehman brothers knew about finance. It’s just understanding built on each others theories in a small circle of people. It vastly strays from reality. They get a lot of help from Marxist historians in India. Every time if anyone tries to cast doubt on what they say, they shout “nationalism”. Agreed lots of nationalism has been present in the picture too. But not always.

    Do I think ancient Indians knew about nuclear physics and stuff? Hell No. !! They were primitive.They came up with some good stuff like philosophy and bunch of imaginary stuff.

    But I do think it all happened somewhere very close to India and I think Vedic happened at the same time or before Indus, and they influenced each other highly.

    Conclusion. I don’t know anything for sure. In fact no one knows. We need more research.

    My fellow Indians:

    At this point we need people who will educate themselves and try to do more research than assert that it’s all wrong. We need to take everything with a grain of salt, including Vedas. The point here is not to prove India is great. The point is to find who were are really.

  42. The Mythology of the Vedic Horse

    The discovery of the ruins of the Indus Civilization in northern India remained virtually unknown for decades until Indian writers and historians realized that they were overlooking something of historical importance for their country’s history. The gradual archaeological evidence from the exposed ruins excited Indian academia so much so that

    they began to formulate a new history for India’s history to equate it with Rig Vedic

    civilization, a latecomer to the Indian subcontinent. The rush to bind the suburban Indus

    with the pages of Vedic steppe life ran into a brick wall literally, with the total

    archaeological absence of the horse and chariot in its ruins, the two most central

    innovations brought by the Indo-Europeans from the vast steppes of Russia and together

    with the rite of cremation as the central focus of their religion. Since then, Indian writers

    and historians have been stumbling among themselves in a desperate effort to absorb the

    two distinct entities as a continuity of their history. Unfortunately, these efforts have

    been unsuccessful due to several factors but the most powerful of these are the horse and

    chariot that characterize so much of the pages of the Rig Veda.

    The massive efforts by writers and historians to conceptualize the pages of the Rig Veda

    as part of the Indus has brought forth bitterness and indeed some bad blood. Books and

    literature has been reprinted to cast it as indigenous despite the glaring evidence that the

    horse and chariot did not exist in the Neolithic period in Indian history. But historians

    and their surrogate writers are going to make sure one way or the other that Vedic and

    Indus history are one and the same, despite the deep varying contradictions that stare

    them in its ruins.

    Ah, the Rig Veda, it is so unique with its vibrant life from the steppes of Russia and its

    bards and seers singing and chanting the praises of Indra and the sky gods and the new

    found, fertile land of rivers and forests of northern India. Here the Aryan tribes,

    fascinated with their new surroundings brought a new type of burial, the rite of cremation

    and the innovations that would cause such contention, the horse and chariot. This central

    focus of horse and chariot played an important role in their religion, the mythology of the

    horse, a mythology that never existed or seen before in Neolithic India.

    THE NEOLITHIC INDUS CIVILIZATION

    The enigma of the Indus remains exactly what it is today, from its date of discovery.

    The Indus civilization with its vast population and cities with modern conveniences as we

    enjoy today, still baffles archaeologists, historians and writers with its absence of the

    horse and chariot. Its writing and imagery of seals do not portray any pictures of the

    horse and chariot but its supporters insist to this day that the horse and chariot did and do

    exist in its history. This persistence, at times vehement encounters embarrassment and

    raised tempers from those who support an Aryan Indus. But to begin to write about

    anything historical, one must begin with periods or dates. There is no doubt that the

    Indus civilization began in 2600 and ended in 1900 BCE, a time when although huge

    cities and roads were built and trade prospered, the horse and chariot was nowhere in

    sight. The seals and script of the Indus provided an intellectual use for trade and

    commerce and although trade was far and wide, nowhere in the records of the Indus

    are the existence of horse trade. Everything else under the sun was traded with Sumer,

    Mesopotamia and Babylon and those are very faraway places. The taboo to portray the

    horse in writing as suggested by some writers , I cannot buy. Why should an advanced

    civilization with such high intelligence, if it possessed the horse and chariot consider it

    taboo to expose it images? This, I think is an excuse by some in academia to account for

    its absence and which they can’t produce any evidence whatsoever. Some writers see

    horse finds and remains in some cities of the Indus and even illustrate such figures in

    their writings. None of these scarcely resemble the horse and I can tell a horse when

    I see one. No doubt the Indus was heavily populated with asses and onagers which

    was used to pull heavy wooden carts and these scarcely resembled chariots. The

    Neolithic Age in India have not produced any horses or chariots and the people of India

    had to wait for the advent of the Bronze Age for the horse. Horse remains and finds

    in the Indus as written by certain writers are just that. There are no justifiable evidence

    that they can produce simply because compared to the pages of the Rig Veda, the Indus

    was not blessed with a mythology of the horse. That is only found in the Rig Veda. The

    Greeks had one, the Trojans had one and the Hittites had one. We see in all these

    civilizations the populace interacted and integrated with the horse and chariot, in wars,

    horseback riding and social interaction. This is completely absent from the civilization of

    the Indus and we read in the pages of the Rig Veda the vibrant horse trade and breeding

    between the Aryan tribes. In substitute, what the people of the Indus did was make use

    of the vast herds of asses and onagers for transport from the feeding grounds of the

    Rann of Kutch. It had a plentiful supply of asses.

    There is no depiction of the true horse or chariot in the ruins of the Indus civilization

    irrespective of what is written or what is read by Indian scholars and historians. The

    attempt to do so otherwise makes one suspicious of their true intentions. Now, why

    should some writers and historians attempt to include the horse and chariot in the Indus

    and give it an Aryan character? Whatever the motive is only exposes the agenda or

    angle from which the writer or historian is coming from. Whatever that is does not

    concern me. What concerns me is the point that the Indus is not an Aryan entity and

    had never been one. Here, I will enunciate several points and arguments that the Indus

    was just the Indus and nothing else.

    As I said before, the Indus has never possessed a mythology of the horse nor of the

    chariot. We have not seen any images of the chariot or horse in the seals of the Indus

    nor in its writing , however much has been deciphered. We have not seen people of the

    Indus interacting with the horse and chariot as illustrated in other civilizations, nor have

    we seen any evidence of horse trading on the seals with other countries. A high

    civilization such as the Indus with writing and no mention of the horse nor its images is

    very, very baffling. In the archaeological record of other civilizations there are

    depictions of the horse and chariot either in battle, riding postures, or simply interacting

    with its citizens. This lack of integration in the Indus, the lack of evidence of breeding,

    the lack of describing of the colors of horses and lack of training is preponderant and

    the Indus either did not receive horses from the Aryans or their civilization collapsed

    before the Aryans moved in.

    THE BRONZE AGE HORSE

    Book Two, the oldest book of the Rig Veda first mention the horse in Hymn I, Verse 5

    and give a description as a steed and we all know that the Rig Veda is full of such

    descriptions of this animal. As a nomadic tribe or tribes, the Aryans came from the

    steppes and we read of their nomadic life on the banks of the northern rivers of India.

    How they worship the horse, revere it, care for it and ultimately sacrifice it according

    to their religion. The horse is the main pillar of the lifestyle of the Aryan tribes and

    their daily life and activities is centered around it. Those writers who expound so

    loftily about horse and faunal remains of these animals in the cities of the Indus are

    forgetting one central point. The writings and seals of the Indus so far have not uttered

    one word of horses existing in the civilization nor have the seals and language of the

    Indus depicted any horse strappings as saddles, bits and bridles. Nor have there been

    depictions of authentic parts of chariots such as yokes, six-spoked wheels, fellies or

    any such parts. All this is known in the pages of the Rig Veda. The fact is that the

    Aryans worshipped a religion dominated by the horse and every Indo-European

    religion is similar to that of the Aryans of India.

    The horse first made it appearance in Greece around 2100BC with a well developed

    mythology and so do Troy with its famous Trojan horse around 1900 BC. Later on,

    Egypt possessed the horse due to the invasion of the Hyksos in 1700BC. Although,

    every stone has been literally overturned in the Indus in quest of the horse, nothing

    has been found. So much so in some quarters, much ado about nothing is being made of

    about the very name of the horse in India. Doubts are being cast about the very existence

    of the horse in the pages of the Rig Veda as various writers are now suggesting that the

    word for horse is being used as a symbol in its pages. Decades of failure to find this

    animal in the ruins of the Indus, its maddening existence in the Rig Veda and its

    stumbling block as an obstacle to prove that the Indus was Aryan , has taken hold the

    obsession of writers and historians to now obliterate its very name in Indian history. The

    denial that the horse existed as something real and only as a symbol is now accepted by

    Indian scholars in an effort to clear the way for an Aryan Indus. It was only recently, that

    an effort was made through fraudulent means to concoct a picture of a horse in a sordid

    display of attempted forgery to put the horse in the Indus. This attempt is how far some

    zealous scholars are prepared to go to achieve what they cannot achieve by legal means.

    Why is it that other great civilizations have shown the existence of the horse and chariot

    in its everyday life of war and peace but the Indus cannot produce any evidence of this

    in its history? There can be but one answer to this question and that is by the time the

    Aryans reached the cities of the Indus, they were already abandoned and the inhabitants

    more or less had deserted the cities due to geographical and climate changes. It was a

    time of chaos and confusion which its unsettled people neither had the time and place to

    practice its culture and normal way of life. Strange newcomers with stranger animals and

    vehicles together with climate change gave no time to the Harappans to include the horse

    and chariot in its culture and history.

    THE HORSE EVIDENCE

    So many writers and scholars have analyzed the horse evidence with varying degrees

    of their opinions on the absence of the horse at the Indus. Horse evidence by various

    historians and scholars have written volumes that remains of horses have been found

    at various places as Rupnagar, Kalibangan, Lothal, Mohenjo-Daro and other areas

    and terracotta images of this animal has also been found in its ruins. None of these

    finds have stood the test of true horses and a glance at these bones and figures shows

    the uncanny resemblance to asses and onagers and hemiones, found in such numbers

    in the Rann of Kutch. Even if for argument sake, that horses were part of the culture

    of the Indus, why is there not a mythology in its culture , why is there no images or

    mention in its writings and seals? Why are there no evidence of interaction or

    integration of the Indus people with this animal? The far fetched idea that a taboo was

    the reason is preposterous and at the same time humorous. How more serious can you

    get? The play with words such as the term as ‘the linguistic horse’ is another instance

    where writers in imagined scenarios stated that Indians emigrated from India and settled

    in Central Asia where they acquainted themselves with horses. If this is so then, Central

    Asia was not the place to know horses but around the foothills of the Ural Mountains in

    the deep steppes of Russia’s Sintashta, over thousands of miles away to the north. There

    they would have witnessed the same sacrificial rites practiced by the Rig Vedic Aryans

    of later India. So much for this scenario and its linguistic term and its suppositions that

    that the archaeological record of India does not have enough horse remains in the

    in the Aryan civilization. It is all well and correct to use the taboo to find an excuse

    for the absence of the horse in the Indus, so why can’t the climate be used to

    accommodate the reason why only a few places in India has horse remains. The fact

    is that the Indus has NO remains of the true horse but the Gandhara Grave culture among

    a few other places do exist with horse remains. The symbolic argument by some

    authors to deny that the Rig Veda of the true existence of the horse in India is a very

    weak one, for as days go by , the Indus is not yielding any evidence of the horse and

    chariot. This fear is gripping Indian academia and new arguments with weak intonations

    are constantly being trumphed up to bolster sagging egos.

    VEDIC HORSE MYTHOLOGY

    When the Aryans came into India riding horses and chariot, it was a new phenomenon

    never before seen by the indigenous people for these were not wild horses but

    domesticated ones. Those who deny this have only to sift through the Gandhara Grave

    culture in the Swat Valley around 1600 BC. This evidence of horse remains on the

    Indian subcontinent is not disputed and confirms the existence of horses in Aryan

    settlements in northern India. The Rig Vedic attestation of horses and chariots are

    written in the earliest verses of their intrusions into the plains and river valleys of ancient

    India. There are also clear attestation of horse riding in the Rig Veda in the form of the

    Maruts in their journeys on horseback. We read of reins, bits and bridles being used for

    riding in other instances in their history. Now, a nomadic people who are always on

    the move would not chant and sing and compile experiences if they had not encounter

    such things in the past. The horse which was central to their religion was sacred to their

    entire life and the argument that these things were symbols and not tangible is a weak and

    stupid and intellectual dishonest. The opening pages of the Rig Veda describes the

    flames and the sacrifice of the horse or the Ashvamedha as it is known in our history.

    Some writers should be ashamed to play with the word ashva or horse for this is the

    correct word for the horse and not an intangible or symbolic entity to substitute for the

    horse. The horse sacrifice is real in Rig Vedic practice and the attempt to abolish the

    horse as flesh and blood from the pages of the Rig Veda is vicious and is an effort to

    equate the sleepy , metropolitan Indus society to the fresh vigorous and vibrant nomadic

    clans from the steppes of Russia. Indian horse mythology and legend also describes

    the flying horse, similar to the Greek Pegasus, emerging from the churning of the ocean.

    It’s a white horse with two wings which Indra took to his heavenly abode Svarga and

    chopped off its wings to let it remain on earth.

    This richness of Indian mythologic horse lore corresponds to other Indo-European horse

    mythologies which is absent in the Indus civilization for without such mythology, the

    Indus could not experience the horse in its environs. The absence of a horse mythology

    contributes to the absence of the horse and its image among its people.

    The Indus Civilization built in the Neolithic Age is one of the wonders of the ancient

    world, peering through the mists of time with its magnificient buildings, toiletry, baths

    and network of roads through which one expects to see a motor car swerving through

    its path. This civilization with its vast network of irrigation, docks and trading vessels

    ranged far and wide beyond India to trade its products. Overland it used the plentiful

    supply of asses and onagers and heavy wooden wagons to trade with its neighbors but

    it did not have the horse. Why? Because the horse did not reach these trading empires

    but were on the fringes of their borders of Central Asia. The trading ships and companies

    do not have any records of lists of horses traded between Mesopotamia, Sumer and

    Bablyon. Trade apart from sailing vessels was carried on in heavy wooden wagons

    hauled by hemiones and onagers and even these were used by the kings and emperors to

    fight in battles as imaged on seals. The advent of the horse changed everything in these

    countries but by that time the Indus civilization had declined and its inhabitants scattered

    to the four winds. Nature had taken its toll. The Indus Civilization would never

    experience the beauty of horseback riding nor the grooming of horses and their

    domestication at the hands of humans. That would be left to the empires that traded with

    Vedic India for the horse was a relative late comer to the rich empires of the south,

    arriving on the fringes of India from the vast steppes of Russia in the form of Aryan

    nomadic tribes, with a new way of life and philosophy and religion and a new art of war.

    The Aryans were notorious cattle rustlers and superb horse breeders. There is not even

    an instance where any Indian writer could point with a clarity of mind that he or she

    could identify that the Indus Civilization knew the horse. The variety of reasons for this

    is that the limitless number of arguments concerning the horse has been lost by those who

    are busy with the obsession of the Aryan Invasion thus, overlooking important areas of

    Indus history which could not accommodate the presence of the horse in its civilization.

    All the arguments, all the bitter acrimony of those who wrote with such gusto and

    glowing richness of purpose that the Indus is Aryan may have India at heart and that is

    admirable. But to argue for something and present papers to further such a purpose

    without any foundation to build upon such arguments is not worth the while. To argue

    for the presence of horses in the Indus Civilization at a time and period in its history

    when such an age does not present archaeological evidence is stretching Indian history

    to the limit. Other civilizations have left us with their history of the horse and its

    mythological lore it played in the lives of men.

    Pegasus, the winged steed flew in Greek history, Homer sang of the horses on the plains

    of Troy and of the Trojan horse, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse foretold of the

    pestilences of the earth and yes, the Vedic horsemen drove their chariots across the

    Indian sky. And the Indus mythology? I see no horses or horsemen flashing across the

    Indus sky. The Indus people have not left us any written word or images that would tell

    us that their history also contained such animals of mythological lore.

    There is hardly a paper or book that does not imply or describe that the Indus possessed

    horses, horse bones, or remains of horse evidence in its excavations. As one person puts

    it, “ No archaeological evidence from Harappan India has been presented that would

    indicate anything comparable to the cultural and religious significance or the horse…”

    (Hans Hock) The sweeping suggestions by Indian writers and historians of numerous

    versions of Indus expertise that most of the cities of the Indus and its surroundings are

    areas of excavated horse bones and remains, is just a stretch of the imagination. Even

    Prof. Bokonyi could not identify a horse from an ass and he is the most quoted being

    among those who feverishly look for a vestige of this animal in the ruins of the Indus.

    They should pay attention to the astronomical symbols of the Indus with its telling

    absence of the horse on its calendar. This is in contrast with the Vedic one which has

    the horse’s head and even this part of the horse ,putting aside its whole body is not even

    illustrated nowhere in the Indus civilization and its cultural history.

    THE HORSE- A CHARACTERISTIC OF STEPPE LIFE IN INDIA

    The rousing denial of those who do not believe in an Aryan Indus and that India

    is not part of the Russian steppe life should realize that the horse by its very nature

    is part of the steppe life from the Russian steppes. Its sacrifice and burial from the

    remote vastness of the Southern Russian steppes just as practiced in Vedic India

    in Aryan times, together with the chariot must be like bitter almonds to the taste buds

    of Indian historians who are trying to rewrite its history. Such a ritual as practiced

    by Vedic Aryans from wherever they came from with this animal tells us that they

    tamed and domesticated the horse, was accustomed to the vastness of the steppes to

    let the animal wander for years and that the ritual was done among the warrior caste

    in its homage. Further, this was not done in isolation but among Indo-European

    peoples in dedication to this powerful animal. The horse and chariot are steppe

    innovations brought to India among other places by migration or invasion whichever

    you chose to believe. It is very strange that one writer stated that why the horse is not

    found in the seals of the Indus is because it is considered taboo by either the ruling class

    or its people. Stranger still, if that is so, writing its name is taboo too? That is silly. But

    some people use their writing to confuse, obfuscate and mystify others who believe in

    the dark arts and probably, that is why we see so much vehemence and acrimony from

    readers coming out from India who fervently believe in an Aryan Indus. No one has

    stopped to think that the ritual of the Ashvamedha by the Vedic Aryans is a steppe

    culture brought by them to India and its part of the mythology of the horse, a mythology

    that is absent from the Indus. As one writer puts it, “It would be very difficult to dispel

    the case made by the great Ashvamedha hymn of dirghatam A auchathya of the clan of

    the gotamas that reeks so strongly of the steppes and not the riverine valleys of the

    Indus.” ( A Quick Look at the Aryan Problem)

    Then, there is the suggestion that the Indus with its nearness to the BMAC and

    Afghanistan could have had the horse in its history. Then, what about the large

    bone and faunal findings in the cities of the Indus? It that not evidence of the

    existence of this animal in this civilization? Several writers gone to great lengths

    describing the existence of the horse and chariot at the Indus with illustrations of

    pictures and depictions of bones of horses and chariots. Who do they think they

    are fooling? Those illustrations appearing in articles written by those who believe

    that horses and chariots existed at the Indus are fooling themselves. Those

    pictures of horse remains and bones are nothing but remains of onagers and hemiones

    or half ass that roams the fields of the Indus. They look nothing like the real

    horse that the Aryans brought to India. Much emphasis is placed on Surkotada where

    Indus historians and writers are placing their hopes that the horse existed there but they

    seem not to realize that without a mythology , the horse cannot just appear in a primitive

    society without some historical attachment to its power, virility and its ability for speed.

    Ancient people are not like us, they were very primitive in their thinking and perception

    of things around them, they were cautious and put a cause and reason for everything that

    happens in the world that surrounds them. The animals that the Indus people etched on

    their seals proves that they worshipped and adored them and had the horse existed there,

    surely something in writing would have remained in its ruins. We have not seen any

    interaction with this animal nor its integrative image with the people. For example,

    in other civilizations nearby to the Indus there are evidence that the horse was there

    after it was introduced by Aryan tribes. We see etchings and depictions of people

    riding horses as a method of interaction and its integration in its society and it would

    gather some mythologic accretion to this newly introduced animal. The Indus has not

    provide this kind factual existence nor its mythologic beginnings to warrant a prehistoric

    Indus horse. It has not left any depictions nor imagery of the horse. Then, why do the

    writers and historians persist in this endeavor to prove something that never existed in

    ancient times? This I cannot answer, but nearby civilizations of Sumer, Mesopotamia

    and Bablyon did obtain the horse at a time when Aryan tribes were pouring and over-

    running the rich southern empires of the south but the Indus was apparently left out.

    This is baffling, since as a civilization it traded far and wide and the absence of the

    horse and chariot in its archaeological ruins should not be surprising, since most likely

    it was already in ruins due to some ecological and geographical disaster. The massive

    effort to provide a horse for the Indus, even by fraud is surprisingly taken lightly by

    intellectuals and their supporters and this does not bode well for Indian history. Even

    horse trade did not make it any easier for the Indus to have a horse and this great trading

    civilization with its mystifying seals and scripts still have brilliant linguists and

    historians puzzled even today in their attempts to decipher them. The writings of the

    Indus like the horse seem to elude the searchers of that piece of evidence that will

    clinch it for posterity.

    THE HORSE IN INDIA BUT NOT AT THE INDUS

    The myth that there are horse bones and remains in the Indus Valley sites and that

    excavations have also found such remains in pre-Indus areas are just what they are-

    a myth. The claim that chariots have also been used in the cities of the Indus are

    also a myth and the writers and historians who compose these writings have not

    been able to provide evidence to prove their points. These claims are the jumping

    off points from the case of the supposedly dead theory of the Aryan Invasion which

    is now being used to marshal and stitch together a patchwork for an Aryan Indus.

    This theory now being propagated by writers and historians can only fail because of

    historical circumstances which when laid out here will show that it is impossible

    for the Indus to become Aryan. An ancient seal of Abbakalla UR III around

    2050-2040 BC images of people riding horses, BMAC seal impression also shows

    around 2100- 1700 BC riders of horses. These are two of the oldest images of

    people riding horses .( The Horse, the Wheel and Language – David ,W. Anthony)

    The expansion of the Aryans into Mesopotamia and Syria introduced the horse and

    chariot culture to these areas. Sumerian texts from ED IIIb Ngirsu (2500-2350 BC )

    already mention the chariot (gigir) and Ur III texts (2150-2000 BC) mention the

    horse (anshe-zi-zi) (Wikipedia –Indo-Iranians)

    It is strange is it not that these civilizations have a word for the horse and chariot but

    the Indus which our writers are desperately searching for a horse does not have a

    name for it. But they are searching for the animal. The other civilizations have

    the horse and chariot and rides horses at a time when the Indus is at its peak and is

    able and has the ability to write in its records and carvings of humans riding horses

    but not so the Indus. But the reason that is given for the absence of the horse is that

    of a taboo as one writer puts it. How is it that the Indus Aryanists are searching for

    an Indus horse and its neighbors are already riding horses but these Aryanist writers

    are telling us that horse bones exist in the cities of the Indus. How is it that the

    Sumerians and Akkadians are using chariots and riding horses in the same time

    period and all that the Indus Aryanists could come up with nothing but bones of asses

    and hemiones and onagers? How is it that the Sumerians and the Akkadians are

    enjoying horse rides and in this same time period there are no horses or chariots in

    the streets of the Indus? How is it that a proven archaeological fact that stratified

    finds of horse bones and remains are found in the Kachi and Swat valleys of India on

    the border of Sindh / E. Baluchistan around (1700 BC )? Isn’t it possible that the Indus

    could not have the horse because their civilization had already disintegrated? (Witzel

    EJVS)

    Unsubstantiated reports and writings by Indian writers and historians are kept churning

    out to keep the controversy growing. Already, the Indus has yielded a lot of

    archaeological evidence but so far nothing about the horse. And it will not ever yield

    such remains simply because the horse was never at the Indus. Keep on dreaming.

    ——————————————————————————–

  43. Ever since the Aryan Invasion theory was disregarded( though some still believe in it) there has been an

    escalating and sustaining effort to restructure the Indus as an Aryan or Vedic civilization by Indian writers

    and historians and some fellow travelers. It is universally agreed that the Aryans were a pastoral and

    nomadic tribe who apparently left no tangible archaeological remains in their intrusion to the well organized

    urban cities of the Indus. Arguments back and forth has been going on for years, with the pro- Aryan Indus

    writers bitterly defending their position that the Indus is Aryan and the other side rejecting it with the horse

    argument, stating that there was no true horse in the cities of the Indus. But then, the pro-Aryan Indus

    supporters are claiming that horse remains has been found in all levels of the Indus, thus making the

    civilization Aryan. Such too is the argument for the chariot. Foreign scholars in their opinions,does not

    view it this way and thus to the chagrin of the Indian scholars, a lot of rage and anger now passes under

    the bridge, so to speak. The Aryans who originated from the vast steppes of Southern Russia, brought a

    few customs and rites that were entirely new to the citizens of the Indus and to the rest of India. These

    steppe customs include the rite of cremation, the new innovation of a war chariot, with spoked wheels

    instead of heavy wooden ones as was found in other civilizations, shaft holed axes and swords, the swift

    horse, quite different from the onager and hemiones found in the region, a new religion , the horse sacrifice

    and in general a new way of life and a new language. The intrusion of this new people with their strange

    rites and customs must have fascinated the locals, especially their way of burying their dead after its

    cremation. But the most fascinating probably was the horse sacrifice. This custom of letting the horse to

    wander and then sacrifice it to bring prosperity to the Aryans , though brutal and a bit fiendish, was done to

    exalt the power of the animal. Archaeological discoveries of the burial of sacrificed horses in the homelands

    of the Aryans in the far reaches of the steppes at Sintashta and Petrovka is explicitly described in the Rig

    Veda and truly distinguished the urbanite Indus citizens from the nomadic Aryans. Here is a rite that

    cuts deeply in the differences of the two civilizations. The search for the trail of the Aryans by those who

    believe that the horse did not exist at the Indus can sure sink their teeth into this argument with the idea that

    the Indus could not have possess horses as the Indus Aryanists propose, for if they were indigenous Aryans

    some remains of burial of horses and evidence of horse sacrifice would have been in the archaeological

    ruins and burial grounds. The Indus has not provided such evidence. If their argument that the Indus cities

    were as old as 3300 BC, then where are remains of sacrificed horses? And Aryans whose life revolves

    around the horse consider this rite as very important. The Ashvamedha argument , can destroy the claims of

    Indus Aryanists in their quest for such an entity. The horse argument can easily slip out of the hands of

    Indus Aryanists with those who reject the existence of the horse at the Indus. If the horse existed at the

    supposed Aryan Indus, archaeological evidence will have to be shown that all the rites and customs

    associated with this animal is true. We can’t have horses at an Aryan Indus civilization and there are no

    horse sacrifices for these peoples’ religion demand that the horse be revered and exalted, since they come

    from an Indo-European heritage and culture that believed in the sacredness and its lore of mythologic

    worship. The mythology of the horse is absent from the Indus civilization because the horse was absent

    from its pantheon and heritage. This consistent energy by Indus Aryanists in battering their way for an

    Aryan Indus will eventually , I think disappear.

  44. Juven,

    Your argument is based completely on the domestication of the horse. First of all there is no record of a chariot to have existed before 2000 BC inside or outside of India. There is also the very large FACT that the overwhelming majority of the current Indian population is the same since the initial out of Africa migration.

    As for your so-called Andronovo culture, there have been no trace elements of that culture warrior interment or timber-frame substance have been found in India at all. The European aryanists were the ones to have originally introduced race into the whole issue and claim themselves to be the master race, relative to the mud races (of course).

    The Sarasvati River is agreed upon by most scholars to be the Ghaggar-Hakra River, which of course could not be any closer to Europe.

    There is no mention of a migration at all in the Vedic texts.

    As the Rig-Veda was found at earliest based on physical evidence at around 1500BC it does not seem impossible for horse-drawn chariots to have been come into existence a few centuries prior. There are also references to elephants, camels asses, buffalos, guars, wolves, hyenas, peacocks, geese, lions. sheep and mountain goats. Elephants of course being far from the arid deserts of Central Asia.

    To suggest that Indo-Aryan branched off from Indo-European would be to say that the original language had come to India and then decided to leave.

    As for your theory about people migrating from cooler climates to warmer climates, if that were the case then people would never have left Africa. First of all do not forget the fact that there was an ice age. Europe was not inhabitable by many up until around 35,000 years ago, it was then when the climate started to warm that increased migrations into Europe from through the Eurasian steps had occurred. If you look at the East Asian migration from out of Africa you would see that they also went up north and then eventually to the point of crossing the land bridge and arriving in the Americas.

    The whole Aryan Migration theory is based on pure speculation, the evidence is “linguistic” not genetic or physical, as the Andronovos did not have.

    The latest definite remains of a horse is at 1600BC which still does not rule out the Out of India theory. There have also been horse remains discovered in India from 2265 BC to 1480 BC near Allahabad. There have been horse remains from 2200BC in Lothal, Kutasi 2300-1900, and Surkotada from 2400-1700. The earliest chariot found in Mesopotamia at around 1800BC, and the Equus sivalensis an extinct species may have been alternative to the horse used . There was a written passage in the Rig-Veda that referred to horse traders, it is not realistic to think that trade between Mesopotamia and Central Asia was impossible.
    The earliest depiction of a horse used in warfare was in Sumer at 2500BC. Many near-eastern civilizations themselves have remains of the horse, yet they do not possess and non-circumstantial evidence until a date closer to that of India.
    While the horse has not been found on any Indus Valley seal thus far, neither has any cow been found, and yet large bovine bones have been found. There is also the very large fact that there have been no uncontroversial bone remains of a horse found in the BMAC culture as well. So it is hypocrisy to reject the Indus Valley claim for horse remains and then claim that the Aryans had come from central Asia through that land. There are no timber graves present south of the Oxus river which would seem foreign to Andronovo culture, or at the minimum very peculiar. The archeological data for the Andronovo penetration into Bactria and Margiana is at a very minimal extent even in itself. The data itself only goes as far as the Central Asian steppes, and it would be a stretch to point out as noted by Bryant that it could reach as far as Medes, Persia or India.

  45. You did not give your name but you said, “The earliest depiction of a horse used in warfare was in Sumer at 2500BC. Many near eastern civilizations themselves have remains of the horse..” Here you admit that the surrounding empires possessed the horse. True ,but why is the Indus bereft of horses and chariots at a time that these kingdoms used these new technologies? This is strange. Is it not? Sumer, Babylonia and the Akkadian people have depictions of humans riding horses or using chariots. Frawley says this is taboo. A highly educated man as Frawley and Indian scholar would consider taboo as the main cause for the absence for horses at the Indus. At a time in their history when these empires were very aggressive and warlike they showed off their horse and chariots. Frawley won’t fool me. His inability to find a proper excuse for the absence of the horse at the Indus is inexcusable. The simple fact is that whenever something is new in one country, it turns up in another country. It did not happen in the Indus. Why? Several causes may have played out here. (a) The Indus was already fallen, (b) the people had already fled the cities. (c) Natural causes such as flooding and earthquakes , (d) The arrival of Indo-Europeans , meant the takeover of society and culture. Frawley may have proved that there was no Aryan invasion but his reasoning for the absence of the horse and its mythology at the Indus is succinctly incorrect.

    • Chariots don’t appear until 300 BC in India. So there goes that ignoratio elengchi. On the second hand horse bones have been recognized by Bokonyi the horse expert in ancient India from the middle of the third millenium BC. Also horse bones are not well preserved in the Indian environment. Therefore it can be said based on logic that the horse was as scarce in the PGW as it was in Harappa

      • Errata, Bokonyi is a horse expert, but he is not from the third millenium BC and he is not Indian. He was an international horse expert

    • You people of the Aryan Indus, I would say one thing. Show me the horse mythology of the Indus and I will show you an Aryan Indus.

  46. Juven,

    You still seem to have not have addressed the fact that there is no evidence of a link between the domestication of the horse in Central asia and the transition of it to South asia.

    There have been some disputed remnants of the horse left in the indus valley, however they remain controversial.

    It is your assertion that the horse arrived from Central Asia to India via the aryans, however there has not been any material which proves that to be the case.

    There is not enough evidence at this point however that would settle the argument of the horse arriving in India via the aryan migration.

    The PIE central asian theory was based on the invention of a new language, and all other points surrounding that theory are merely to rationalize that point of view.

  47. There was no difference between Arya and Dravid. This divided is created by Britishers like other divides

    • May be my page at

      http://gaiaenduresall.blogspot.com/

      may be interesting to you.

  48. Sanskrit is the ancient language which originated in Ancient Bharatvarsh or India around 6000 B.C.
    This was the period of Vedic civilisation which emerged in Ancient India along the rivers Ganges
    and Brahmaputra around 6000 B.C. and later stretched as far as Afghanistan and Iran and Srilanka
    in the south.
    Sanskrit was derived from the Vedas.Many Indian and Western Historians have correctly determined
    the timing when Vedic Civilization existed in 6000 B.C.by converting the dates called as”Paanchangs”
    mentioned in Ancient Hindu texts,into the modern day calender.Even the correct dating of the
    “Mahabharata” war has been determined to be around 3100 B.C.Although there have been numerous
    attempts by some western Scholars and Historians during the last centuries especially Max Muller
    to prove this wrong by the introduction of the false and IMAGINARY “Aryan Invasion theory” AND LATER
    “ARYAN MIGRATION THEORY” which wrongly says that Sanskrit did not originate in India and was brought
    to the subcontinent by some Persian nomades who invaded Bharatvarsh somewhere around 1500 b.C.
    Especially during the British Raaj the Indian history was wrongly altered by the use of force &
    wrong Archeological evidences like “Mohenjodero” and “Harappa” .But the fact is “Aryan Invasion
    theory” is totally wrong as there is whatsoever no proof in Ancient Hindu records of any “Persian
    connection” or Sanskrit being brought from there.
    THE TERM “ARYA” OR “ARYAVAT” MEANS “NOBLE” OR ” ONE WITH ALL GOOD QUALITIES WHICH WAS WRONGLY
    INTERPRETED BY SOME OF EUROPEAN HISTORIANS AS A RACE

    BOTH SO CALLED “ARYANS” AND “DRAVIDIANS” WERE MEMBERS OF SAME FOLD.THE DIFFERENCE N SKIN
    COMPLEXIONS WERE ONLY BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT CLIMATIC CONDITIONS IN NORTH AND SOUTH INDIA.

    The true pillars of Indian history are the “Vedic Civilization” in 6000 B.C. ,”Bharatvarsh Empire”
    in 3300 B.c.But the most worrying part is Indian History books are still teaching the same false
    history base on wrong theories and Persian fairy tales instead of following their correct history.

  49. I call upon all The Hindus in world to ban all the historians and websites especially “Enwikipedia” and channels like “Fox history” and “national geographic”which gives wrong information and timings about the ancient history of India.Ban these things ,since they ‘re destroying hindu culture and vote for “Hindu” political parties.

  50. The FAKE ARYAN INVASION and Fake Aryan – Dravdian Divide was made by Max muller , who was hired by East India Company which was under the Roth child family.

    Aryan-Dravdian theory is the same Divide and rule policy of the unenlightened ones, who only came to corrupt and destroy the mother civilization.

    “Lost years of Jesus ” was ALSO refuted by the infamous Max muller !! Hence East india company was also under the influence of the Vatican Church, who’s missionaries came to india to convert people. If u play Age of Empires, religion was also used as a Weapon, convert them and they will come to your side.

    Look at the symbol of the jews and compare it with “Pratik” one of the 108 symbols of God in Sanatan Dharma. The first temple of Jews was made by king Solomon, who’s Mines are between India and australia!! Emperor Vikramaditya ruled from jerusalam to cambodia , hence Solomon was King Vikramaditya himself. which was the part of the history Max muller was used to Warp.

    Hence all monothistic religions are a warped version of Sanarah Dharma, how can i prove it? swastika is every where in the world, even with American Indians BEFORE their country was taken over by the Europeans. Their languages words also end with ” aha” just like in Sanskrit.

    Swastika is every where, in troy, Greece etc etc

    Vatican found pictures of Rama in excavation sites in Italy which they covered up, hence the world wide conversion to keep the illusion going.

    Muslims include most of the bible and their saints into their holy texts.

    Sanatan dharma ->> jain + buddhism

    Sanatan Dharma >> jews >> christians >> muslims

    This is the warp of Kali yuga, we are all the same people, warped by the power of Kali yuga.

    Manali is a place in the himalayas, and its meaning is Home of manu and the only place of temple of manu. After the great flood the civilization restarted in the himalayas and spread through out the world.

  51. Sanskrit had the word Vimana the word for aircraft, before the west even thought of the concept. Hey, they thought the earth was flat, yet the Ancient yogi, rish and sant’s of India knew the truth.

    And Yantra the word for machine, which died out far before any development of the European world.

    Look at the Hindu site in Russia that was found, and Swastika was there.

    Still till today, no one other parallel culture understand the concept of Chackra system where the soul is connected with the body.

    Why do we put a mark right in the middle of our foreheads? Because We know the basic constructs of the universe. We are the true enlightened, who forgot their own history as they are the oldest of all.

    I could explain Divya gyan, the knowledge of the enlightened, but i dont have the time.

  52. Btw It was also Max muller who made the term Indo- European to undermine the worth of Sanskrit.

    He created the Aryan invasion theory, which was used by hitler to commit his genocide. He used Swastika, and literally flipped it in every sense of the way. Inverted it like the stories of the Anti -christ in the bible. But hey, he didnt use the cross , did he?

    Why did he use swastika of all the symbols, why did he choose to be called Aryan if it meant nothing ?

  53. How Exiting Knowledges………
    Maha Bharath & Ramayana are 6000 BC. Hard Skin………………

    Sankhaparivar writers last few years hardly trying to cover Aryan Migration.
    Can them point a single evidence in Vedas or Upanishads about Mohajadaro Harappan Civilisaton?.
    Pasupthi Siva & Linga vership was Draveedian ( Rudra is not Siva, Rudra was a smaller God in Vedha, “Vedha always crying ” Indra” please help us from these Linga worshippers”)
    SIVA The ultimate God of Draveedians,
    First Bhramins degrade Siva as Chandala (Dalith) and then Surrender in 800 AD by Marry White Parvathy (Jains Padmavathy) And give “Muruga”(Draveedian Only God Son not “SKANDHA” )& North Ganesa then Place Them to Himalayas ( Thi Sivapurana was done in 1200 AD) Vedas are from Iran side, Very similarities with Parsy ‘AVESTHA’. Sanscrit is anew generation Indo-Europian language? Only 1200years old, But Tamil had solid evidence it is 6000 years back.

    In Tamil Sankham Litterature(500BC.) You can see many comments about white and “Red color aryans” Aryans living in Punjab side( This is clear evidence of Aryan migration). Chera’s are Paraya’s (Dalith’s clear evidence in Sankham Literature)
    Even go to Himalayas, A normal man can Identify, Kedar nadh, Badari nadh and all himalayan temples are Budha Vihars.( Ambedkar knows these things)
    Even all over India “Budha”& Jaina Churches converted as Hindu temples.
    All Budha stachues distroyed by Sankaracharya or his devotees 1200Ad.
    At last black “Yadava Krishna” & “Chandala Siva” got cross- thread (Poonool) MADE THEM BRHAMINS
    Vedas INDRA AND MANY GODS VANISHED.
    Anybody tell about Dravedian Cristianity, You people Crying “ It is Missinonary work to destroy India” Are you Remember? India ruled by British 150 years. That time You and all White skin Brahmins are BOOT LICKERS of British.

    NB. Divide & Rule is Aryans theory, Varnasrama, Slavory, Untouchability.
    That is the cause people converted to Islam, Sikh & Christian

    DID U KNOW: (follow these ‘do u know’ questions and read description, it will change your understaning about hinduism)
    1. Do u know, there was no Temples in Vedic period and it was copied from Budha. Budha didnot like castism and Vedic ritual and so he created his own religion and Brahmins didn’t like him at all, yet when budha died, Brahmins said, that Budha is incarnation of Lord Vishnu?
    2. Do u know, Tirupati statue and Panduranga statue are Budha statues?but brahmins changed them into Hindu gods?
    3. Do u know why Vedas is not translated in any other indian languages? because 90% of vedic poems are about rituals and meat eating methods and Soma juice (alcohol) and they are meaningless, only 10% is knowledge based vedic slokas.
    4. Do u know, we were all, Meat eating in Vedic period, and Vegetarianism came very recently, and it is out of competition with Budhisim/Jainism and brahminism?
    5. Do u know, Brahmins were cooks and care takers of Fire(yagna is nothing but celebration of fire and food, but they gave different meaning to it?
    6. Do u know, Most of the GODS were non Brahmins like Lord Rama, yet these Gods were inducted into brahminism and those GOds taken away from innocent castes?
    7. Do u know, that we Historical Crime committed on our HINDUS BY HINDUS by Intellectual slavery and Knowledge monopoly?
    8. Do u know, it is all in the ‘Meaning’ that we give to a story or history that makes reality?and so all our history in the past has been changed by giving different meaning?
    9. Do u know Lord Parasurama is mass killer and killed his own mother, but he was made God by Brahmins?
    10.Do u know, our Self Destructive cycle of Hinduism: is Castism which was invented by Brahmins and made everyone to follow strictly so that they can dominate?
    11.Abolition of Intellectual Slavery(after our Independence): we prospering by creating Equality now and we are making real progress, that is not seen for centuries in the past?
    12.Do u know, Reservation in education is a “pay back” time for our ancestors abuses? Brahmins had more than 100% reservation in the past?
    13.Do u know, Eklavya Syndrome — some Hindus continue to suffer even now in some remote villages in India(they can’t use thumb for bow and arrow?
    14.Do u know, Castism is worse than Racism (castism hindu hates hindu, racism white hates black)?
    15.Do u know, Idol worship started after Budhism? 300-400BC
    16.Do u know we practiced “Purusha Medha Yagna” (sacrificing people) but we don’t talk about it.
    17.Do u know, Brahmins had “ 100% Educational reservation” for Centuries?(and we need same years for others to develop)
    18.Do u know, SOMA juice is the most addictive ‘alcohol’ like drink,used extensively in Vedic period.
    19.Do u know, “gotras” are based on Owner ship of cattle in vedic period?
    IF u donot know these facts————– read on——- to get profound Knowledge—It will change your LIFE for EVER!!
    Brain is like a muscle, the more exercise u do , the stronger it gets.We have not only atrophied our Hindu brains for generations by hating them that the brain has been dis-use atrophy and it takes long time to bring it back to original state. We have given ultimate punishment and no wonder they are poor, illiterate, uneducated, dispirited– and unable to use benefits given to them. If we blame their poverty,illiteracy, uneducation— we are blaming ourselves.

  54. Very Interesting read Rajan!
    Sometime I wonder of this forum is not occupied by a particular mindset . And your comments are a refreshing change.
    Whatever the Aryan Apologists may claim to have happened.the fact remains that the Sumer is the oldest of all civilizations.The Hellenic,judaic and Persian civilsations were profoundly influences if not originated from the Mesopatmian civilisations.
    So did the Indus valley civilzation which was a kind of commercial centre sevicing the Sumerian Assyrian and Babylonian empires.
    Unfortunately environmental changes led to the demise of saraswati in addition to the increasingly unstable conditions in the Mesopotamian regions ( the Assyrians and the babylonians where constantly at war) Led to the collapse of the Harappan civilization.
    One interesting fact is IVCs decline is linked to the drying up of saraswati and Drishadvati.
    Where as the vedic people seem to have had the fortune to enjoy its presence.
    But archeological evidence does not support the premise that Vedic period existed before the harappan.
    Vedic gods themselves underwent a change when a exodus from the ancient Mittani kingdom which rose when the Assyrians where in decline. They defeated the Assyrian( or Assur the followers of the God Ashura and hence known as Asura to Vedic people).
    And took the palace gate to their kingdom.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni
    They had Vedic deities (Indra varuna Nasatya)and assumed Indo Aryan names -like Barattarna ,Dusratta, Sutarna, Artadamaetc.
    They introduced war chariots in the region –hmmmm (dustratta and war chariots …gets me thinking)
    They were defeated by the Assur under Assur -Uballit . and migrated over centuries through Persian soil and finally to India.
    So when one goes through the ‘Sacred” Vedas the term Asura seem to refer to Lords and nobles and a person with extraordinary power/
    Indra, Agni and Varuna were addressed as Asura as a term of respect.
    Quote
    ‘THE gods are the Suras and the demons the Asuras or “non-gods”. This distinction, however, did not obtain in the early Vedic period. Originally the deities, and especially Varuna and Mitra, were called Asuras, but in the later part of Rigveda the term is applied chiefly to the enemies of the gods. In the Atharvaveda, as in subsequent Epic literature, the Asuras are simply demons and giants and goblins.

    No conclusive explanation can be offered as to how this remarkable change took place in the course of the centuries embraced by the Vedic period. It may have been due primarily to sectarian strife between the religious teachers of those tribes which had been influenced by Babylonian modes of thought and those which clung tenaciously to the forms of primitive Aryan nature worship, and perhaps also the worship of ancestors (Pitris).
    It is ‘Ahura Mazda’ who is the God of all Gods in Zoroastrianism .In ancient parsi language the letter ‘S’is exchanged for ‘H'( for eg Sindhu changed to Hindu). And the Devas are considered enemies of Ahuras
    There is also an opinion that Ahura Mazda had a vedic counterpart in Varuna . who slowly through the text of ‘Sacred’ Vedas was demoted from the bringer of seasons and the three cycles of the Day ( trivikrameshwar- which was given to Vishnu -one of the tenthousand adityas) to a simpleton who guards the oceans.
    In the Rig vedas – Indra and varuna bid good bye to their father the Asura.
    Remember that in hindu mythology Asuras are the brothers of Devas they are from the same father ( Kashyapa).
    So my submission is that
    1) Indeed there has been a kind of migration of either people or just ideas.
    2) Migration had to be from the areas where the asuras where found which is in the mesopotamian- hittite north syrian region.
    3) Th Vedas reflect the journey of the Human mind through its evolvement – and it carries it baggage of frustrations and anger and prejudices.
    Not very unlike the Old testament

    • The earliest attested Harappan hieroglyphics come from 3300BC so I will have to disagree with your comment

      • @Moma I had touched upon a wide range of subjects in my last post.
        So if you could kindly point out and elaborate a little , it will be enlightening-
        Keeping in mind that earliest signs of the Sumerian Civilization was circa 6500BC

  55. Has anyone found the horse in the Indus civilization? Its been a very long, long time.

    • Bokonyi

  56. Dear friends i really don’t believe in aryan and dravidian concept. If u just look around India itself there are equal fair and dark skin people. Only different is only DNA. Is common in any country there are native people which have thick African DNA even in southeast Asian which people are link to Mongoloid DNA. Just basic mixture might happen even in north and south India. All Indians are one and the same people only. I myself have very fair skin tone and my mother people thinks she is from Iran and she is not. She is just a Malayalee.

  57. people are saying that backward communities like sc/st are dark coloured.but in kerala,it is not.example people in a community called malai arayan in centrl kerala,which is also ST ,are simply looks very fair and whitish,unlike the other tribes.

  58. The aryan invasion is a totally wrong theory.We indians are really fool to accept it.The fact is that our indian civilisation is oldest one and sanskrit is one of the oldest languages of the world.

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